Jewish Federation finds Palestinian flag offensive

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
No, that's his own damned business.

I'm sure that many people would disagree with that.

Hell, we've elected Congressmen and Senators who have worn Israeli pins! Do you think they should have been fired?

There's a difference.

You elect congressmen and senators to promote an interest group. That's their job - to represent some interest.

The President's job however, while in office is to represent and promote the American interest, therefore he can not publically support anyone as a personal agenda. At least in theory.

When Bush supports Israel as part of his foreign policy, because it protects American interest, it's ok.

If he, like Clinton, had supported Israel because of his personal liking of it, it would have been wrong.

That's my idea of purity of office.

I also think that the Israeli concept in which a government member is also a member of parliament is wrong and faulted.

[axi]

I'm sure that the french embassador was talking as a private person when he reffered to Israel as a "****ty little country" but he still isn't supposed to do that, while he's an embassador.

The french make a profession out of being rude.

This reminds me of when the American ambassador said to the Greek PM: "**** your parliament! **** your constitution!". I guess that he too was speaking personally then, right?

There is a difference though. Insulting someone is an act punisheable by law, if the victim presses charges. Also in that case, breaking some laws are a good reason to lose an office (like f.e. a lawyer will lose his permit if he commits a felony). But displaying a flag is not an insult to anybody.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov

So you wouldn't mind if Bush put a dozen of Israeli flags in his ranch in texas, so that they will be easily seen?

Why would I mind?

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

While in office, an official shouldn't make his personal opinions and biases public.

Like I said, nice to know free speech is alive in Israel .

Why don't you just go all the way and turn into a fascist state. We all know you are just about halfway there.

Again you go back to propoganda patterns.

I want to have a serious discussion. If you want to troll, don't troll me.

Again, I repeat, free speech applies to citizens.
When you're in office you have responsability towards the country. I don't think that it is right for a member of the executive or judicial branch, to publicize his personal positions.

His job is to present state position, and not be a private person.

Look at Clinton, again.

He was pro-Israeli not only because of his political line, but also on a personal basis. Infact, he was so much pro-Israeli that he has done some things which I'm sure Americans don't appriciate.

For instance giving pardon to a person who was a rich american jew who used to help mossad sometimes.

[Imran Siddiqui]

I'm sure that many people would disagree with that.

Then let them disagree. A politicians personal beliefs are his personal beliefs.

You elect congressmen and senators to promote an interest group. That's their job - to represent some interest.

The President's job however, while in office is to represent and promote the American interest, therefore he can not publically support anyone as a personal agenda. At least in theory.

BULL****! You know nothing about America. A Congressman or Senator promotes and represents not only the interests of the section of the country he is from, but also the interests of America.

If he, like Clinton, had supported Israel because of his personal liking of it, it would have been wrong.

Yet if a politician has a personal liking towards Israel... that makes him look at Israel more favoribly, and sees backing Israel as in the state's interest.

Sorry, you can't seperate them.

That's my idea of purity of office.

There is not and has never been 'purity of office'.

[Oldenbarnevelt]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov
I do think however, that asking the police to remove it was quite very silly.

I agree. But it was not a rash action.

The flag had been hanging there for some weeks without any criticism. Then the neighbours living opposite the Duisenbergs got a little fed up having to look at the flag of the peace-loving and un-corrupt PA all the time and asked Mrs. D. to remove it, telling her that she had made her point very clearly. But she refused. And then this little group, hardly representative of anyone, decided to take (legal) action.

-

[axi]

So you wouldn't mind if Bush put a dozen of Israeli flags in his ranch in texas, so that they will be easily seen?

If such a thing ever happened, it would be a political disaster both for Bush and the Israelis, so I would laugh my ass out.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Again, I repeat, free speech applies to citizens.
When you're in office you have responsability towards the country. I don't think that it is right for a member of the executive or judicial branch, to publicize his personal positions.

His job is to present state position, and not be a private person.

And like I said, why don't you move to a Fascist state. It wasn't a troll, it was my belief.

When you start saying crap like officials don't have free speech that citizens have, then you are moving towards fascism, no ifs ands or buts. Officials are citizens too.

And btw, their 'job' isn't 24/7, they have time being a private citizen, and their rights should be protected, not trampled upon.

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by axi
The french make a profession out of being rude.

This reminds me of when the American ambassador said to the Greek PM: "**** your parliament! **** your constitution!". I guess that he too was speaking personally then, right?

I don't know and I don't care. I think that he had no right to say that, while in position.

There is a difference though. Insulting someone is an act punisheable by law, if the victim presses charges. Also in that case, breaking some laws are a good reason to lose an office (like f.e. a lawyer will lose his permit if he commits a felony). But displaying a flag is not an insult to anybody.

Suppose Bush says that he really likes Turks and as a private person does not like greeks or greece.

I also understand americans when they are angry that people in the white house, express personal pro-israeli and pro-zionist views.


Sikander, I'm sure that you won't mind. But many pro-palestinians would.

[Sirotnikov]

And like I said, why don't you move to a Fascist state. It wasn't a troll, it was my belief.

Do you have any idea how that is related to a fascist state?

If anything, when observing purity of office, you are closer to true democracy.

When you start saying crap like officials don't have free speech that citizens have, then you are moving towards fascism, no ifs ands or buts. Officials are citizens too.

Yes they are. They are citizens with responsibility.

And btw, their 'job' isn't 24/7, they have time being a private citizen, and their rights should be protected, not trampled upon.

Obviously, and they can observe their right in their privacy.

However, imagine if Bush publicises an article about how he thinks that Arafat is a liar? or Sharon is a butcher? He can't and you know that. You can however.

[Imran Siddiqui]

I don't know and I don't care. I think that he had no right to say that, while in position

What ever happened to free speech for all citizens?

Suppose Bush says that he really likes Turks and as a private person does not like greeks or greece.

So? And yes, you can also extend it to Bush saying he likes Indians and doesn't like Pakistanis as a private person.

See below...

Sikander, I'm sure that you won't mind. But many pro-palestinians would.

So what?! Then they can vote him out the next election. That is what democracy is, you know.

[axi]

I don't know and I don't care.

That statement had followed the rejection of an American plan to solve the Cyprus problem in 1964, in which we had to cede an island to Turkey as a tradeoff. The proposal was rejected on the grounds that the constitution forbids the govt and the parliament to give away national territory.

So now you know.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Do you have any idea how that is related to a fascist state?

Yes, you are slowly taking away rights of people.

Yes they are. They are citizens with responsibility.

What the Hell does that mean? Yes they have some responsibility to do their work. That doesn't mean that they hand over their rights. They can do their jobs responsibily and believe what they want to believe. Free speech for EVERYONE (especially officials) is essential to a democracy.

However, imagine if Bush publicises an article about how he thinks that Arafat is a liar? or Sharon is a butcher? He can't and you know that. You can however.

Who says he can't?! He can, but that would be bad for diplomacy. In the past, US officials have written disparaging things about other countries' leaders in newspapers, etc.

[Sirotnikov]

Then let them disagree. A politicians personal beliefs are his personal beliefs.

And while he is in executive office, he should keep them to his private company.

BULL****! You know nothing about America. A Congressman or Senator promotes and represents not only the interests of the section of the country he is from, but also the interests of America.

Obviously, but he can represent the interests of America from the p.o.v. of his interest group.
A member of the executive branch however, does not represent himself, or his minority group, but the whole state.

And don't lecture me about America, ok?

I know it's not always observed, and I don't think it's right.

Yet if a politician has a personal liking towards Israel... that makes him look at Israel more favoribly, and sees backing Israel as in the state's interest.

Sorry, you can't seperate them.

You can't always achieve it, but I think that one has to strive to it.

Do you like your president to make decisions based on what he thinks will be better for America or what will be better for Israel?

There is not and has never been 'purity of office'.

There should be.

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by axi
If such a thing ever happened, it would be a political disaster both for Bush and the Israelis, so I would laugh my ass out.

That's the point.

This is not a thing which should happen.