Race mixing

[Ethelred]

Originally posted by Tingkai

Korean-American storeowners got caught in the cross-fire, but that was due to economic differences not because of immigration.

It didn't help that they tend to be rude. Something to do with Korean culture. I don't know why. No other Asian culture has that reputation in California.

[Ethelred]

Originally posted by Tingkai

That should be self-evident. The effects of cultural and racial prejudice are the same.

The effects can indeed be the same. However as I said and you seem to have failed to understand the point, culture is not in your genes. Culture changes and cultures can clash without prejiduce being involved. Asians don't have a problem with eating dogs or cats for instance. It creaps most Europeans out. Many asians don't understand queing up. Japanese do and they have a lot less problem adapting in the US.

Mexicans eat dog too but they don't seem to do it in the US. I have never seen a Buritto Perro available in the US.

[Ethelred]

Originally posted by Tingkai
The basic problem with Cali's theory is that he assumes immigration creates new prejudices. The reality is that bigots of any race don't need a reason to hate. If there are no immigrants then they will just turn on other people who are already there. If there are 10 immigrants, they will be hated just as much as if there are 1,000 immigrants.

Biggotry isn't really about race or culture in many cases. Those are just excuses for releasing their inner *******.

Cali thinks that the US should slow down immigration, or institute race-based immigration rules, because there are bigots who hate immigrants.

Why should the US sacrifice economic growth just to pander to the bigots?

Well slower immigration definitly allows more time for adaptation. It also makes it harder for imigrants to insulate themselves from the changes they must make to adapt to the US or Canada. People adapt faster when they are not surrounded by by their own culture as is often the case. Chinatown as Little Saigons are not really good things overall if a high percentage of the imigrants are living in such places.

German towns and Little Sicily too but I don't run into those on the West Coast.

[MrFun]

never mind

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Ethelred
It didn't help that they tend to be rude. Something to do with Korean culture. I don't know why. No other Asian culture has that reputation in California.

Well they may well have a reputation for being rude, but is it a fair reputation? Could it be that when people meet a rude Asian-looking person, they just think "Oh he must be Korean."

Some of the things considered normal in Korea would be considered rude in North America, but a lot of things North Americans do is considered rude by many people. So it is not so much that they tend to be rude, but rather there is a cultural difference. That difference will disappear over time.

Originally posted by Ethelred
The effects can indeed be the same. However as I said and you seem to have failed to understand the point, culture is not in your genes.

I think it is you who has failed to understand the point. When I said "That is self-evident" I was agreeing with your point that people can change their cultural habits.

Originally posted by Ethelred
Culture changes and cultures can clash without prejiduce being involved. Asians don't have a problem with eating dogs or cats for instance. It creaps most Europeans out. Many asians don't understand queing up. Japanese do and they have a lot less problem adapting in the US.

Mexicans eat dog too but they don't seem to do it in the US. I have never seen a Buritto Perro available in the US.

That's a very odd statement. First, you say that cultures can clash without prejudice and then you demonstrate cultural prejudice.

You're saying Asians this, Asians that. These are gross generalizations that are not true. So you look down on Asians for things that they do not even do. That's prejudice.

Your claim that Asians don't have a problem with eating dogs or cats is completely false.

Have you ever seen dog or cat offered in an Asian restaurant in the U.S.?

Most of Asia does not have a tradition of eating these animals.

The only place that I know of where it was widely accepted was in Korea, but it was recently banned in the south. The ban upset a lot of the older people, but the ban was supported by the younger generations (and many of the older generations) who think it is barbaric to eat dogs.

I don't know of any Asian country where eating cat is a tradition.

As for queuing, it is not as common as in North America, but it does occur. If you come to Hong Kong, you will see that most people line up for the bus, but the subway is a free-for-all. Then again, the subway in Toronto is the same thing during rush hour.

I have seen many white North Americans jumping a queue, but I don't make a prejudiced assumption that all whites jump a queue.

Originally posted by Ethelred
Well slower immigration definitly allows more time for adaptation. It also makes it harder for imigrants to insulate themselves from the changes they must make to adapt to the US or Canada.

History says otherwise. Immigration from China to Canada was extremely limited in the first half of the 20th Century, but the adaptation rate was not much different than it is now. Chinatowns existed back then when immigration was limited, these communities exist now.

The reason for these communities is simply economics. If one store sells Chinese products and does a lot of business, then an entreprenuer will see an opportunity and open a similar store nearby to tap into an existing market. That makes more sense then opening up a Chinese-products store in an area where there will be no customers.

Contrary to popular opinions, most immigrants do not isolate themselves. They may gather together because they share common interests, but this does not mean that they close themselves off from the rest of the society.

[Ethelred]

Originally posted by Tingkai


Well they may well have a reputation for being rude, but is it a fair reputation? Could it be that when people meet a rude Asian-looking person, they just think "Oh he must be Korean."

Or maybe they notice the rudeness first.

Most people can't tell if someone is Korean by looking. I can sometimes but not with perfect accuracy. I had a lot of Asian customers. Lots of Vietnamese, Korean, Japanese, Philipino and some Chinese in the photo shop I worked in. I had to get their names which made it possible to be sure which was which. I didn't care the names just came with the job.

I think it is you who has failed to understand the point. When I said "That is self-evident" I was agreeing with your point that people can change their cultural habits.

Except that my point that its different for race. One can be mitigated through cultural assimilation. The other cannot and does not usuall entail an inherent cultural difference in the US.

That's a very odd statement. First, you say that cultures can clash without prejudice and then you demonstrate cultural prejudice.

Again you evade the point. Prejiduce is not involved when the neighborhood pets become someones dinner. I don't think it has happened often. It was an example. You are assuming things.

You're saying Asians this, Asians that. These are gross generalizations that are not true. So you look down on Asians for things that they do not even do. That's prejudice.

You aren't aware of the high numbers of Asian that have imigrated to Orange County. I used them for examples of culture clash since I know them. I don't know the culture clash in Little Sicily but I mentioned it so you would get the message. You chose to assume some sort of bigotry on my part instead of comprehending.

You seem prejiduced against discussing culture clash.

Your claim that Asians don't have a problem with eating dogs or cats is completely false.

You are in error. It depends on the specific Asian culture of course.

Have you ever seen dog or cat offered in an Asian restaurant in the U.S.?

I wouldn't expect to. Its not comercially available nor is it legal here. Nor do I go to restraunts much. The restraunts would have a hard time keeping its liscence when the Health Board came around.

Most of Asia does not have a tradition of eating these animals.

Most of Asia is seriously short on those animals. I don't think cat would popular in Thailand though. That really is where Siamese Cats came from.

The only place that I know of where it was widely accepted was in Korea, but it was recently banned in the south. The ban upset a lot of the older people, but the ban was supported by the younger generations (and many of the older generations) who think it is barbaric to eat dogs.

So thats one. Another is Viet Namese. Or was anyway when they first came here after the fall of Saigon. I lived in Little Saigon AKA Westminster California. Its marked that way on the freeway ramps.

I don't know of any Asian country where eating cat is a tradition.

It wouldn't be. Not enough cats in nations where its OK to eat cats. There is a difference between acceptable and traditional.

As for queuing, it is not as common as in North America, but it does occur. If you come to Hong Kong, you will see that most people line up for the bus, but the subway is a free-for-all. Then again, the subway in Toronto is the same thing during rush hour.

Hong Kong was British till recently. Queing is a British word, its called lining up in the US. I would expect most people in Hong Kong to be familiar with lining up.

I have seen many white North Americans jumping a queue, but I don't make a prejudiced assumption that all whites jump a queue.

You don't understand the difference between prejiduce and discussing a culture clash.

History says otherwise. Immigration from China to Canada was extremely limited in the first half of the 20th Century, but the adaptation rate was not much different than it is now. Chinatowns existed back then when immigration was limited, these communities exist now.

\

Actually history doesn't say otherwise for most cultures. Chinatowns first arose due to Chinese not being allowed to live elsewhere in California. Little Saigon did not arise that way. It arose because so many people moved in at once. In other parts of the US that didn't happen.

I have no idea how Little Seoul arose but it did. I can't even read the signs for most of the shops there.

Contrary to popular opinions, most immigrants do not isolate themselves. They may gather together because they share common interests, but this does not mean that they close themselves off from the rest of the society.

They are ABLE to close themselves off when there is a high enough concentration. Lower immigration rates will result in lower concentrations. Many of the older Viet Namese in the area still haven't learned much English despite being here for over a quater century.

[Sikander]

I find myself much more tolerant of people discriminating based upon culture than race. Cultures are about values, and if we can't have a dialogue and choose which values we want to uphold, we will soon find that all political discourse is difficult or impossible. We do have to be sensitive to the fact that people acquire most of their cultural values long before they have the intellectual capacity to question it, but we also have to allow the forces present in any meeting of two cultures to work away at modifying the flashpoints where possible. Cultures should be respected inherently to some extent, but they mustn't be so coddled that they are insulated from the other cultures in society at large. Allowing this will ensure the Balkanization of the U.S.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Ethelred
Most of Asia is seriously short on those animals. I don't think cat would popular in Thailand though. That really is where Siamese Cats came from.

It wouldn't be. Not enough cats in nations where its OK to eat cats. There is a difference between acceptable and traditional.

Your statements indicate you don't know what you are talking about.

If you ever travel to Asia, you will see that there are many stray cats and dogs.

You will also learn that eating cats or dogs is quite uncommon. It is definitely not done in the developed parts of the region.

But of course you know that. You're just trolling, and doing a pretty decent job. I'd give it about a 6/10. You have to be a bit more inflammatory to get a higher mark.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Tingkai


The LA riots are another example that answers your concerns.

Your initial premise was that immigration causes hatred and violence, yet the LA riots were not sparked by new immigration. It was the result of the long-standing grievences of the black community towards a perceived white justice system.

I was using that as an example of racial tensions not specifically resulting from immigration. I guess it was slightly irrelevant, but you seem to be justifying these riots. Blacks and whites suffered bodily damage and destruction of property in the LA riots, so the rioters were basically just a bunch of thugs who wanted to smash things and use race as an excuse.

The basic problem with Cali's theory is that he assumes immigration creates new prejudices. The reality is that bigots of any race don't need a reason to hate. If there are no immigrants then they will just turn on other people who are already there. If there are 10 immigrants, they will be hated just as much as if there are 1,000 immigrants.

I should clarify. Immigration on a large scale creates cultural clashes. Racism is partly a result of this.

Cali thinks that the US should slow down immigration, or institute race-based immigration rules, because there are bigots who hate immigrants.

Immigrants from european countries are more likely to assimilate culturally. Im not proposing we cater to bigots, I just want to reduce cultural differences that cause violence between races. If we all have similar cultural values then we are more likely to treat each other as brothers and sisters. After all, that is what all humans on this planet are.

[mindseye]

You will also learn that eating cats or dogs is quite uncommon. It is definitely not done in the developed parts of the region.

Huh? From everything I have been able to gather, dog is eaten in most of China, especially in the North. It's a winter-time dish. It's easy enough to find here in Shanghai (presumably a "developed" place) - and quite tasty, I might add. In fact, the Swiss have been complaining over the increasing number of Saint Bernard farms in China. It seems the St. Bernard is a great breed to raise as livestock, given their weight, gentle nature, and large litter size.

I don't know of any Asian country where eating cat is a tradition.

Aren't you from Hong Kong? I personally know at least two people who have eaten cat - both instances in Guangdong, no surprise I've held many classroom discussions on cultural differences in meat-eating. I ask students to brainstorm on what meats are not eaten in China. The list is pretty short. I routinely encounter students who have sampled cat, bat, monkey, scorpions, and various other critters.

[Ethelred]

Originally posted by Tingkai


Your statements indicate you don't know what you are talking about.

They show I do know what I am talking about.

If you ever travel to Asia, you will see that there are many stray cats and dogs.

Thats nice. Its doesn't change the fact that some Asians eat them. I never said all nor is it necassary that all do for there to be culture clash which IS ALL I WAS TALKING ABOUT.

You will also learn that eating cats or dogs is quite uncommon. It is definitely not done in the developed parts of the region.

Which does not in any way change or effect what I was talking about. You have blinded yourself.

But of course you know that. You're just trolling, and doing a pretty decent job. I'd give it about a 6/10. You have to be a bit more inflammatory to get a higher mark.

I am not trolling. You are being remarkably dense and close minded. I gave it as an example of a culture clash. Only the the most obdurately dense and tightly shuttered mind could have missed that.

Nothing I wrote promoted bigotry. Nothing I wrote was engendered by prejiduce on my part. Only your closed mind and heavily filtered imagination generated that perception.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by mindseye
I ask students to brainstorm on what meats are not eaten in China. The list is pretty short. .

Did they mention human fetuses. About six months ago a big story in Hong Kong was that Mainland restaurants were selling soup made with aborted fetuses. Stories saying the Mainlanders will eat anything are quite popular in Hong Kong. The more shocking the better.

As for dogs, makes sense that it is a northern tradition. That would explain the popularity in Korea.