Gibraltar - what should we do with it?

[SpencerH]

I'm unaware of the opinion in Britain, but if the people in Gibralter wish to remain British then there's no question is there? You do remember, or know about, the Falklands eh?

[SpencerH]

Originally posted by jasev

That's exactly what happened with Hong Kong, isn't it?

No, the land that Hong Kong was built on was leased. Gibralter isnt.

[jasev]

You do remember, or know about, the Falklands eh?

No, never heard about. What are Falklands? Even better, what's history?
(just being sarcastic. In fact, I made a scenario about that)

What have Falklands to do with Gibraltar?

[jasev]

Originally posted by SpencerH


No, the land that Hong Kong was built on was leased. Gibralter isnt.

Right, sorry. 99 years, isnt't it?

[orange]

i agree with the Provost

[Provost Harrison]

...you see, this is an issue of self determination.

And BTW, don't try and take it by force, you know what happened last time someone tried that on us. And it's a damn sight easier to get to this time

[SpencerH]

Originally posted by jasev
No, never heard about. What are Falklands? Even better, what's history?
(just being sarcastic. In fact, I made a scenario about that)

What have Falklands to do with Gibraltar?

The Falklands is a tiny wind blown island off the coast of Argentina that belongs to Britain. There are more sheep than people. Argentina claimed sovereignty for a long time and eventually invaded it. The point is that Britain went to war over it because the people there considered themselves British. If the people in Gibralter wish to remain British then the Spaniards will have to get used to it.

[orange]

yeah, the brits tried to invade Spain. Oh wait, that was just a few months ago

[jasev]

The Falklands is a tiny wind blown island off the coast of Argentina that belongs to Britain. There are more sheep than people. Argentina claimed sovereignty for a long time and eventually invaded it. The point is that Britain went to war over it because the people there considered themselves British. If the people in Gibralter wish to remain British then the Spaniards will have to get used to it.

There are any differences between the two situations. First, Falkland never belonged to Argentina. Gibraltar belonged to Spain. Second, we'd never go to war against an ally to recover a place like Gibraltar. Third, I could feel american (of course I don't, but...), but the US would never go to war to defend me, isn't it?

If the british want the gibraltarians to decide, it's their problem. It's not a matter of people's choice but of international laws. If the british want to preserve gibraltar, Spain has nothing to do about it (well, there is just a little thing about an airport built in spanish zone...). But if Britain, some day, decides to leave gibraltar, no people's choice will avoid it.

[Provost Harrison]

No, you'll find it is an issue of doing the right thing for the people of Gibraltar. Lets face it, it hasn't been yours for almost two hundred years. It's history.

There is no issue of international law, it is the people of Gibraltar's...and if they wish to remain part of the UK, the issue is resolved. There is no debate or conflict within Gibraltar. There is no legitimate claim to it.

[*End Is Forever*]

Firstly, we aren't subsidising the Gibraltarians. Gibraltar is self-sufficient and makes enough money for itself. So it isn't a question of bailing out Gibraltar at all.

It's an interesting question, but there's only one answer. Gibraltar should remain British. The last referendum held showed a 99% majority in favour of remaining British, and given that over 90% of the Rock's population found their way out onto the streets to protest not long ago, it's not likely that any new referendum will reveal anything different. So why waste the money?

Incidentally, a few words on the historical context. Gibraltar has been British now for far longer than it was ever Spanish. Also, perhaps I might consider giving the Spanish viewpoint a little more thought time when they cease to be hypocrites, and give up the Portuguese land that they still control, and also their colonies on the north African coast.

[SlowwHand]

I get it exactly. Kind of like just letting Ireland decide all on their own.

[SpencerH]

Originally posted by jasev
There are any differences between the two situations. First, Falkland never belonged to Argentina. Gibraltar belonged to Spain. Second, we'd never go to war against an ally to recover a place like Gibraltar.

Gibraltar belonged to Spain 300 years ago! If every country with a 300 year old claim to a plot of land wanted it back .............

[QUOTE] Third, I could feel american (of course I don't, but...), but the US would never go to war to defend me, isn't it? [QUOTE]

Sorry I dont get that

If the british want the gibraltarians to decide, it's their problem. It's not a matter of people's choice but of international laws. If the british want to preserve gibraltar, Spain has nothing to do about it (well, there is just a little thing about an airport built in spanish zone...). But if Britain, some day, decides to leave gibraltar, no people's choice will avoid it.

I think its a matter of letting the people decide. Since (from the news reports) they do I think its extremely unlikely that the Brits will abandon them even if some sectors of the government might like to.

[jasev]

Incidentally, a few words on the historical context. Gibraltar has been British now for far longer than it was ever Spanish.

Not exactly. It was conquered by Castile in 1309. Then, later, was conquered by Granada's moslims, but Granada "joined" the spanish kingdom with Castile, Aragón and Navarra, so Gibraltar was spanish around 400 years.

Also, perhaps I might consider giving the Spanish viewpoint a little more thought time when they cease to be hypocrites, and give up the Portuguese land that they still control

And the french should give Strasbourg back to germans, isn't it? It is a border conflict, so there is no relation.

and also their colonies on the north African coast.

Those "colonies" (in fact, they are provinces) have been spanish long time before Morocco even existed. And seeing what Morroco did to West Sahara, I think they'll be better with us.

[Fiera]

This is from a Times Online special about Gibraltar:

What do Britain and Spain want to do with Gibraltar?

Britain wants to negotiate a final status framework for Gibraltar, offering Spain some form of joint sovereignty over the Rock with Britain. Britain insists however that the Gibraltarians must retain their British citizenship, will be able to keep their way of life and will have the final say in a referendum on whether the deal is acceptable to them. Spain wants any arrangement to be an interim step on the way to eventual full Spanish sovereignty over all the Rock. Spain is unhappy with the idea of a referendum deciding whether the deal goes into effect or not.


If Britain is committed to a referendum in Gibraltar, how can it ever reach a deal with Spain?

Britain hopes that Spain will accept the principle of a referendum. It believes Madrid has already gone some way towards this. It believes that if Spain makes its proposals sufficiently attractive to Gibraltar, the inhabitants may eventually consider a deal in their interests. It urges Spain to open a charm offensive to Gibraltar and stop harassment at the border as a way of winning Gibraltarians' trust.


Why is Britain so keen to address Spain's desires over Gibraltar?

Britain wants good relations with Spain because the two countries want to deepen their alliance within the European Union on other issues. It says that the Gibraltar problem is causing unnecessary tension, and in particular is holding up vital EU business because Spain refuses to ratify agreements that include Gibraltar.


How important is the Rock, militarily, to Britain?

It is now of little daily value to Britain as a military base, and almost all British troops have left. But it is still an important Nato base, and in any future arrangement the Americans would like to have access to the base as part of Nato's Mediterranean strategy.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,343-302050,00.html