Israeli Repression and the Language of Liars

[Roland]

"This, despite the fact that Israel has no constitution;"

Israel has a couple of "basic laws", IIRC.

"despite the fact that Israel is defined as the state of the Jewish people"

Well what does he think eg "Deutsch-land" or "Slovenija" means ? That does not automatically mean that other groups are discriminated against. The situation of arab Israelis is a separate issue.

"providing special rights and privileges to anyone in the world who is Jewish and seeks to live there, over and above longtime Arab residents."

Same for the german or russian "diaspora". A right of return is another matter, but the argument is silly in that context.

Shame is that in all the nonsense, there is an interesting point about the Barak proposals. I'd agree that it was a brilliant PR coup to sell it on x% of land, and ignore the pesky little detail of whether this thingie would have been a "state".

[Heresson]

There are no special rights for Poles in Poland. There is action of bringing back Poles from Kazakhstan to our state, but it's really small thing and anyway it's local authorities to pay for that. National minorities have special rights when it comes to elections.

[Panag]

Re: Israeli Repression and the Language of Liars

Originally posted by Promethus
Anyone care to deconstruct this article?
And FYI the author is Jewish.

Israeli Repression and the Language of Liars

http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=13087

If what we see in Israel is democracy, then what does fascism look like? In a world such as this, where words have lost all meaning, we might as well just burn all the dictionaries.

hi ,

maybe you should come and see for yourself , ....

have a nice day

[Az]

Well what does he think eg "Deutsch-land" or "Slovenija" means ? That does not automatically mean that other groups are discriminated against.

The situation of arab Israelis is a separate issue.

One might say that arab Israelis are discriminated in education funding , and the funding of local authorities , the only two things that are separate between the communities. on the first issue : Arabs are not obliged to study in an "arab" school . They can study in a "jewish" school , as well, It's all a matter of choice. Of course , they still mostly go to the arab ones , where they're sent by their parents, who want them to speak arab fluently , etc. The arab system has less money in it , but It doesn't mean arab students are forced to learn in worse conditions. It's their parents that make that choice. In local authorities, the problem is that most arab societies are relatively far from the center of the country. Jewish societies that also are peripherial recieve less money as well, not to mention the fact that many arabs live in mixed cities.

Same for the german or russian "diaspora". A right of return is another matter, but the argument is silly in that context.

yeah, kinda agree. But I am not quite sure that grandchildren of people who lived here can return here. I am not sure their grandparents were citizens , they'd have citizenship...so does the right of return apply?

Shame is that in all the nonsense, there is an interesting point about the Barak proposals. I'd agree that it was a brilliant PR coup to sell it on x% of land, and ignore the pesky little detail of whether this thingie would have been a "state".

actually, this is a rather rare arguement. I am quite certain that it would be a state. There is no point of going half the way. That wouldn't make us peace with arab countries.

[Ecowiz Returns]

The matter of education you pointed out, Dalgetti is becoming increasingly important, and can make much of the diference when you inted to integrate the islamic israellis in you community. Many recent theories point out that the better way to, in time, reduce social inequality is throug equal access to education and, through that and no job discrimination, equal acess to high remuneration jobs. If you find any particular rule (like: we do not sponsor schools that teach arab) to exclude some people from higher quality education, you actually are creating a social barrier with generational effects.

On the other hand, all this questioning of Israelli democracy is simply BS! If you mind, please try to imagine yourselves discussing this same question when Mr. Rabin was Prime Minister of Isreal. It is easy to see that most accusations would be disregarded.

Now, I suggest you to turn your eyes to the Palestinian effort to have a seemingly democratic regime. The comparison is very instructive.

That's why I have so much hope in the Israelli democracy (and sometimes am more demanding of the Israelli position). We actually can expect more from them. The Palestinians have really much more ground to cover before becoming a democratic state(hopefully a secular one).

[Roland]

About arab Israelis: one could of course say that the "poorer arab regions" are the result of a policy favouring mostly jewish central areas. No idea whether this is the case or not.

One funny thing.... the government subsidies for settlements. Could arab Israelis start their own Israel-subsidised settlement on the Westbank ?

"...so does the right of return apply?"

I doubt there is a clear legal solution to this, so it has to be a political decision anyway.

"I am quite certain that it would be a state. "

There were varying proposals around, but IIRC main points were:
- Israeli control over the Jordan valley, maybe transitionary
- Israeli security sectors ("cantonization")
- reserved Israeli security powers beyond that (may have been dropped in later proposals)
- related, Israeli control over most water supplies

Maybe a couple others. Any way you put it, some severe restrictions on sovereignty and viability of that entity.

"There is no point of going half the way. That wouldn't make us peace with arab countries."

Well I think there is a point as long as such restrictions are on a "on probation" basis. If it is clear that after years of peaceful coexistance the restrictions go, it has potential as a compromise.

[Zoid]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov
Kamrat - excellent thinking - you only read sources with thoughts similar to your own.

instead - like always, you ignored that and only proceeded to strengthen your view.

No I don´t.

[Az]

- Israeli control over the Jordan valley, maybe transitionary
- Israeli security sectors ("cantonization")
- reserved Israeli security powers beyond that (may have been dropped in later proposals)
- related, Israeli control over most water supplies

-security sectors? what security sectors ? with most ( more than 95% ) of theland of the west bank going to the palestinians , no place for "cantonization" or whatever.
-Jordan valley : once again, the same response.( it constitutes more than 10% of the west bank ) . my personal view on that is that I am letting it go , despite the fact that if we take the position of some of our anti-israeli personel here, this land is one of the lands that belong to the jews the most. The place was deserted before that. ( it's almost a desert , the Israeli side of the border, despite being near a miniscule river. )

With palestinians having sovereignity , I don't think that Israel would be even able to practice control over water resources. The sad thing is, that as been seen already in the nineties , all the pals did was to **** to the pool they were drinking from, literally, polluting ground waters with sewage. That's their choice to make, but we drink the same water as well. .

They won't have an army . But who needs tanks when you have 16 year olds ?! grr.

I doubt there is a clear legal solution to this, so it has to be a political decision anyway.

as in all other issues in global politics. Good to see some one that recognizes that fact. (Not commenting on is it right or wrong. this is a wholly new debate )

Ecowiz : our universities have a fair share of Arab students, believe me. I live in a mixed city , and we have two univercities in here, one of which is actually pretty good and well known, the Israeli Institute of Technology ( I am joining ) . In both there are both arab and jewish students, and they .. well hate each other's guts.

One funny thing.... the government subsidies for settlements. Could arab Israelis start their own Israel-subsidised settlement on the Westbank ?

errmm , I REALLY don't know.

[Sirotnikov]

Mihai

a) Fighters in a war are NOT equal to Terrorists and Suicide Bombers.

b) Obviously, if Hungaria would still behave in a militaristic fashion, you wouldn't want Hungaria to have the power to hurt you - rightly so.

[Sirotnikov]

Jewish societies that also are peripherial recieve less money as well, not to mention the fact that many arabs live in mixed cities.

Exactly.

As you know, just above our houses there was built a new state of the art school - which is used by arab education.

It's 10 times better than any other state school in Haifa.

If you find any particular rule (like: we do not sponsor schools that teach arab) to exclude some people from higher quality education, you actually are creating a social barrier with generational effects.

It's not a rule.

However smaller cities, and cummunities which have weaker lobbies get less funding.

But frankly education in Israel sucks on a general level.

About arab Israelis: one could of course say that the "poorer arab regions" are the result of a policy favouring mostly jewish central areas. No idea whether this is the case or not.

To some extent it is.
Two other causes are, arab resentment to modernization (which is dying out) since they live in very conservative communities; and intentional worse treatment.

Obviously the intentional part is very bad generally, and only hurts Israel in the long term.

One funny thing.... the government subsidies for settlements. Could arab Israelis start their own Israel-subsidised settlement on the Westbank ?

That's actually amusing.

I'm not sure they could. The govt. usually clears settlements which are started on their own.

And I'm sure that if they try to move to existing settlements, then the local comitties could vote them out.

The problem is, that special sorts of populated points do have the right to vote against new occupants. Israel, when founded, was extremely socialistic. We had unique forms of communes, such as kibutzes and worker's communes. And some forms of these communes, due to thier very tight nature, have legal rights to block new occupants.

But it would be illegal to, for instance, block new occupants (legal occupants) to any major city.

- Israeli control over the Jordan valley, maybe transitionary

According to what I read, it was indeed transitionary.

No I don´t.

So I assume you read all the responses in this thread, and accepted them? Or on the contrary have comments about them?

[Panag]

hi ,

well said Sirotnikov , ....but lets not forget that the education the pal's get is the best in the entire arab world , ....and its their choice if they want to use the money that they get , bot from Israel and from abroad , for other things , ....
and the biggest problem is that a small group of pal's control's and forces their will on the others , also , they should start to kick out these foreigners who have nothing to do in Israel , and do nothing else then creating violence , .......

have a nice day

[Tom201]

A perfect example for a well placed quote, that is adding a lot to the thread

[Sirotnikov]

Tom201, what do you mean

[Roland]

Dalgetti:

"-security sectors? what security sectors ? with most ( more than 95% ) of theland of the west bank going to the palestinians , no place for "cantonization" or whatever."

The idea was to have 4 or 5 cantons in the westbank, and some sort of Israeli control inbetween. The "95%" isn't an argument. I can always cede ownership of 95 % of a piece of land to you, and have a servitute for 5 roads on it.

"( it's almost a desert , the Israeli side of the border, despite being near a miniscule river. )"

The river is that miniscule because Israel sucks up a lot of water at lake Genezareth. And the Main Israeli interest there is a security one I think - also a big junk of settlements is there IIRC.

"With palestinians having sovereignity , I don't think that Israel would be even able to practice control over water resources."

Well that is exactly the problem. If the draft says Israel retains control, I say there is no pal sovereignty. The main "control" is through the Jordan-based water supply system, and Israel pumping most of the ground water from a reservoir that stretches below the westbank and Israel.

[MOBIUS]

On the subject of the Settlements...

From B'Tselem - an Israeli source...

13.5.02: Land Grab: Israel's Settlement Policy in the West Bank

B'Tselem releases new report:
Settlements are built on 1.7% of West Bank land and control 41.9%

Today, B'Tselem hosted a press conference to release its new report, Land Grab: Israel's Settlement Policy in the West Bank. B'Tselem's researcher, Yehezkel Lein, presented the report and the accompanying map which details the built-up areas and the land reserved for future development of West Bank settlements.


International humanitarian law prohibits an occupying power from transferring citizens from its own territory to the occupied territory. An occupying power is also prohibited from undertaking permanent changes in the occupied area, unless they are undertaken for the benefit of the local population or are for urgent military needs. Israel's settlement policy violates these regulations.


B'Tselem's report was published following extensive research and despite difficulties in obtaining information from the Civil Administration. The report makes available to the public for the first time comprehensive information regarding the extent of human rights violations resulting from the establishment of settlements in the West Bank.


The research reveals that while the built-up areas of the settlements constitute only 1.7% of the land in the West Bank, the municipal boundaries are over three times as large: 6.8%. Regional councils constitute an additional 35.1%. Thus, a total of 41.9% of the area in the West Bank is controlled by the settlements.


The report presents the various mechanisms by which Israel's governments have taken control of land and have encouraged Israeli citizens to move to settlements. These techniques include the de facto annexation of the settlements to Israel, the planning system which invests significant resources to expand the settlements, and the granting of numerous economic incentives intended to raise the standard of living in the settlements. For example, in the year 2000, Jewish local councils in the West Bank received grants from the government averaging sixty-five percent more those received by their counterparts inside Israel. Settlement regional councils received grants averaging 165% more than their counterparts in Israel.


Given that the settlements are illegal, and in light of the myriad human rights violations that they cause, B'Tselem calls on the Israeli government to work to dismantle all of the settlements. “From a human rights perspective, there is no other conclusion that can be reached,” said Yehezkel Lein, author of the report, at today's press conference.


Until the process of evacuation is undertaken, B'Tselem calls on the Israeli government to take a number of interim steps to minimize the violation of human rights and international law. Among other steps, the Israeli government should:


Halt all new construction in the settlements;


Halt the planning and construction of new by-pass roads;


Return to Palestinian communities all the non-built-up areas attached to settlements and regional councils;


Halt the policy of providing incentives to encourage Israeli citizens to move to the settlements, and allocate resources instead to encourage settlers to relocate to within the borders of the State of Israel.[/b]

Attached is a map of Settlements

See how they are slowing spreading like an evil cancer, choking the Palestinian's freedom of movement in their own country!

I reiterate, how can anyone with a clear conscience condemn Yasser Arafat for throwing out Barak's 'Generous' offer...!!?

No one can be expected to roll over and take it up the arse like the Palestinians have for 50+ years and not fight back - perhaps the clue that they are more than willing to die fighting for their country should ring alarm bells!?

Fact is their life is a living death due to the depredations of their Apartheid Zionist 'Masters'...

'Beasts on two legs' anyone? That's what Menachim Begin called them when he and Sharon set out to kill almost 20,000 in Lebanon...

Interesting how those that were once persecuted for so long, have now became the persecutors...