Israeli Repression and the Language of Liars

[Eli]

Az ten li lehavin, sherateta be mispan modiin?

[Panag]

Originally posted by CyberGnu
Ned:

Israel is not only the strong party, they are also the aggressor. (bold added for emphasis). Basically, they are stochastic variables.

hi ,

come and see for your self , ........the aggressor , ........right , ....

have a nice day

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by CyberGnu
Siro, well, then you do see the similiarities between the JP and Pravda?

No not at all.

Pravda was written and controlled by the govt.

JP is private opinions of private people. It's like claiming that American media is govt. controlled.

Are you aware that 80% of the information in your news paper is infact given by the government?

Regarding Al-Quida, you again show that you don't get journalism. If FBI claims they have linked the terrorists to AQ, then that is what the NYT reports. Not that the terrorists ARE linked to the AQ, but that the FBI claim they are.

You are very naive.

Journalism is never detached from the popular opnion and especially the writer's opinion.

Do you really want to me go over with you over classic examples of how BBC mask their opinions as facts and present Palestinian claims as an absolute truth?

Furthermore, it appears that you are not familiar with investigative journalism. In Israel, journalists don't sit and wait for the govt. to tell them stuff so that they quote it. They go out and investigate.

For instance, the most effective reporter on arab issues on channel 2, Ehud Yaari, has dozens of sources inside and outside the PA, Hamas, Jihad and Fatah. Also, unlike western reporters, he knows Arabic and follows arabic channels by satellite.

Therefore I trust him more than I trust some obscure quote.

Furthermore, I have access to things you don't see on CNN. I have infact seen live footage of Palestinians faking burial processes. I have seen live footage of the encitement.

I read reports by impartial agencies on the topic of encitement in Palestinian schools and such.

I have read translations and ranscripts from Arab press where they sometimes talk honestly about the goal and form of this intifada.

https://www.memri.org

https://www.edume.org

https://www.imra.org

You only rely on the BBC which is exactly what you claim the JP is, but worse.

BTW, just out of curiosity, when was the last time the JP reported something bad about the current occupation of palestine?

I have no idea, since I don't read it.

[CyberGnu]

Ned, european anti-americanism predates sept 11, and most of europe were solidly behind US in it's 'war on terror'.

the pre-9/11 issues were global warming, the ABM treay, trade issues and foreign policy.

AFAIK, the ABM treaty has no right-left affiliation. Global warming likewise, that is only a question of intelligence. Bush is acting with the intelligence of a five year old, and europe does not appreciate that.

In the trade issues, Bush has actually adopted the traditional philosophy of the left, protecting domestic production of steel etc with tariffs, while the EU has adopted the philosphy of the right, going to court to assure 'fair play'.

And finally, foreign policy. I do agree that many europeans have a tendency to think that the US only does what is best for the US. I don't wuite agree with that, as I can't for the life of me come up with anything the US coul have gained by intervening in Somalia and Kosovo. But it is hard to refute the two solid facts that while the US opposed the Iraqi aggression in Quwait (supposedly to save the US oil supply), they are solidly behind Israeli aggression in palestine. the hypocrisy rankles, regardless of political affiliation.

Furthermore, while the US claims to fight for 'democracy' and 'freedom', they support coups in pakistan and indonesia becuase they believe the dictators have a better change of battling the AQ, and not to mention the venezuelan debaucle just recently. Claims that the US must support Israel becuase they are the 'sole democracy in the ME' sounds quite hollow in the light...

[Arrian]

I assume the JP is the Jerusalem Post? Whatever, it's a right-wing rag. I've read it, and decided it's about on par with the NY Post. Right wing and militant. So what? There are right wing militant people in the media. There are also conspiracy-theory lefties out there (see: The Guardian). This is why it's important to know your sources, and sample various ones.

Basically, Siro's right on this one.

-Arrian

[CyberGnu]

You say, CyberGnu, that you are a rightist. However your simplistic condemnation of powerful countries as always being in the wrong regardless of anything else causes me to doubt to your credentials.

?

I don't know where you got this from...

I support a US invasion of Iraq, I've never claimed otherwise. I have a very simple philosophy: Aggression should never be allowed to pay off. I'm against Israel and Iraq for the exact same reason.

[CyberGnu]

You say to my statements concerning the left are offensive not only to the left but to humanity. I find in contrast many statements on this board that are both anti-Israel and anti-United States to be similarly offensive.

Ned, it would be offensive if I claimed that american support Israel because all americans are neo-nazis.

You want to reduce the debate to pro-palestinian = left winger. That is what is offensive. Not offensive in the same way as calling your mother a hamster, if you see what I mean.

It seems to me that the left has become racist. I find it inconceivable that the left the defends mass murder as legitimate means for advancing political ends.

? Are you going the way of Natan now, where a statement such as 'I oppose genocide' somehow makes you a nazi?

[CyberGnu]

Panang, your invariable answer to thse threads seems to be 'come here and see how horrible war is'. It doesn't really make any difference though, since Israel can end the war whenever it wants. If you really think war is horrible, start calling for a retreat from the occupied territories!!!!!!!!!

[Panag]

Originally posted by CyberGnu
? Are you going the way of Natan now, where a statement such as 'I oppose genocide' somehow makes you a nazi?

hi ,

Natan , please explain , .....
9 out of 10 these words are out of there context , ......

have a nice day

and dont we ALL oppose genocide , ...............

[CyberGnu]

Natan, I did actually show that. I went through those 19 articles, and I do actually understand enough german to make out wha tthe articles were about. Die Welt has never written anything like what was reported in the JP.

That the printed version is different from the internet one is a feeble attempt to hide behind a wish. I don't know a single western paper where content changes... Especially a story as high profile as that one would be.

[CyberGnu]

I'm complaining about both leftists on Apolyton and in general. People who support military action against Israel but oppose action against Iraq, for example.

OK, so that one doesn't cover me.

Your second argument isn't really relevant, because it relates to how facts are presented ("The FBI said '_______' " vs. " '_________' " according to security sources") rather than the actual facts and sources.

assuming this is from my post to Siro?

The difference is that 'the FBI said' isn't presented as fact. It is made very clear from the beginning. From what I can tell, israeli media take 'security sources say' as gospel, and from these threads it is clear that Siro does likewise.

[Panag]

Originally posted by CyberGnu
Panang, your invariable answer to thse threads seems to be 'come here and see how horrible war is'. It doesn't really make any difference though, since Israel can end the war whenever it wants. If you really think war is horrible, start calling for a retreat from the occupied territories!!!!!!!!!

hi ,

no , come to see who does what , ....
come to see what happens really , ....
Israel can end the war , .....;sure , give the military and GO , ...
AND there are to many countries who come to tell us what to do , ....while they have enough to do in their country , .....
also , the PALS dont want peace , ...............

occupied , ....ahem , liberated , ......

have a nice day

[Panag]

Originally posted by CyberGnu
Natan, I did actually show that. I went through those 19 articles, and I do actually understand enough german to make out wha tthe articles were about. Die Welt has never written anything like what was reported in the JP.

That the printed version is different from the internet one is a feeble attempt to hide behind a wish. I don't know a single western paper where content changes... Especially a story as high profile as that one would be.

hi ,

check again , .......;there is even an online translater with their library , ...........

have a nice day

[Sirotnikov]

Cyber - wasn't simply retreat - that's the whole point.

You want to think it would be simple - but it isn't.

We retreated from Lebanon, and now we're being shelled every couple of days. So we have to respond every now and then.


The point is, that a big part of the palestinians, espcially those in power now, the Tunis generation, still haven't accepted Israel as a legitimate being here, and aren't ready for a final agreement.

If we withdraw now, we simply relocate the battle front from the settlements to Israel proper.

Obviously the occupation is doing Israel little good. But it can't be stopped in a "poof".

The difference is that Israel has laid the foundations for a peace plan:
Israel has taught it's people since 1993 for compromise and now there's 60-70% support for the Saudi proposal.

In Palestine however, the PLO did the exact opposite - they laid the foundations for a terrorist state. Instead of fixing the camps, they perpetuated their status.

Instead of teaching about coexistance and compromise, they are teaching about how all of Palestine is theirs, and how the Zionists will be gone, and how Martyrdom is the way.

Martyrdom is existant not because of opression, but because the governmetn has made it so popular. Notice that prior to 1993 there were almost no such suicide bombers.

Why did they appear?
The palestinians only gained.
They gained self rule in many areas.
They gained their own leadership.
They gained their own government.

And so on and so forth.

But, since 1993, the whole palestinian media is busy preparing people for a "war of liberation" which will be fought not over the territories, but over "historical palestine".

That's why it is the PA as the agressor and not Israel.

[Sirotnikov]

israeli media take 'security sources say' as gospel, and from these threads it is clear that Siro does likewise.

What you fail to understand, is that because all the population is serving in the IDF, there isn't such animosity and distrust in security sources.

Mostly since, if they are lying, I have a friend or a cousin who works there and can tell me the truth.