Someone requested evidence of PA involvement in terror?

[notyoueither]

You're full of sh*t on this Kamrat. The UN isn't anti-Israel? Hah!

The fact is the UN doesn't have the power to back up its drivel. That's because it's become a whine-fest for has-been and never-will-be powers. The day that cr*p-fest becomes a real force in the world is the day we all will rue.

[GeneralTacticus]

Tell me the last time the U.S. passed a resolution labelling the PLO racist. Or the last timeThe U.N. demanded the Palestinians stop suicide bombing no matter what the Israelis did. Or the last time a U.N. official compared the Palestinian flag to a swastika.

In 1948 the U.N. was not at all the same as it was today. It was mostly dominated by Western and Pro-Western nations that the U.S. could influence. Now it's dominated by various petty dictators and tyrants who couldn't care less about the rest of the world. It's used as a platform for anti-U.S., anti Israel **** these days. And as NYE said, it has no power to back up it's rhetoric.

All the resolutions in the world are useless when you can´t back them with real power. The USA and the spineless nature of the UN General Assembly prevents that.

They are very useful because people like you seem to take them as some sort of holy writ to determine what's right and wrong.

[Ecowiz Returns]

Siro:
So the UN are a bunch of politicians?
So is your Government and up until now I haven't seen you
even questioning a small bit what they or the IDF proclaim (yes, the generals are also all a bunch of politicians, or haven't you noticed that, already?).
And, also, you can't disallow any credit to polititians. Otherwize you are admiting all social organization, historically established and constantly evolving, is simply wrong, without ofering nothing else in return.

All:
As for the UN's position I'm tired of historical references regarding what once upon a time was a pontual UN position regarding Israel. The fact is that both pro-Israel and pro-Palestinian claim the UN is against them simply because the UN current position is critical towards both sides. Since, in my opinion, both sides deserve criticism, and both sides are unilateraly perpetuating their disrespectfull atitude toward the rightfull desires of Peace, Land and Security of the human beings whose destinies they afect, while demanding the other to stop, I think the UN is, in this moment (aside with the EU, that also has a critical position towards both sides) the most unbiased organization, regarding the Israelli-Palestinian Conflict. Please note, that, when talking of the UN, I mostly talk of the position of the Secretary General and the Security Council.

[Zoid]

Originally posted by notyoueither
You're full of sh*t on this Kamrat. The UN isn't anti-Israel? Hah!

The fact is the UN doesn't have the power to back up its drivel. That's because it's become a whine-fest for has-been and never-will-be powers. The day that cr*p-fest becomes a real force in the world is the day we all will rue.

Clearly you see what you want to see

[Eli]

Originally posted by Ecowiz Returns
Siro:
So the UN are a bunch of politicians?
So is your Government and up until now I haven't seen you
even questioning a small bit what they or the IDF proclaim (yes, the generals are also all a bunch of politicians, or haven't you noticed that, already?).

The UN is supposed to be a neutral, unbiased body. But because it's politicians who make the decisions there, you cant treat it as such.

[Zoid]

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
Tell me the last time the U.S. passed a resolution labelling the PLO racist. Or the last timeThe U.N. demanded the Palestinians stop suicide bombing no matter what the Israelis did. Or the last time a U.N. official compared the Palestinian flag to a swastika.

In 1948 the U.N. was not at all the same as it was today. It was mostly dominated by Western and Pro-Western nations that the U.S. could influence. Now it's dominated by various petty dictators and tyrants who couldn't care less about the rest of the world. It's used as a platform for anti-U.S., anti Israel **** these days. And as NYE said, it has no power to back up it's rhetoric.



They are very useful because people like you seem to take them as some sort of holy writ to determine what's right and wrong.

If the UN proposes a trade embargo against Israel and send peacekeeping forces there to secure the safety of palestinian suicide bombers, then (maybe) I will take your pathetic whining seriously.

[Sirotnikov]

Kamrat, you know verlly well that the UN would do so if it could.

[Ecthy]

do you actually believe that? while answering please keep in mind I might lack the mind to understand it or even read that language. I'm only Emperor Dumbarse here after all.

[Kropotkin]

Oh I thought the UN was a Zionist-communist conspiracy that's planning to invade the US as soon as possible. That's at least what many people that have a black&white view of international politics usually says.

[Sirotnikov]

Kamrat, tell me again why Israel has never been on the security council?

Originally posted by Ecowiz Returns
Siro:
So the UN are a bunch of politicians?
So is your Government and up until now I haven't seen you
even questioning a small bit what they or the IDF proclaim (yes, the generals are also all a bunch of politicians, or haven't you noticed that, already?).

While my government can be many things about inner affiars - one thing is certain - it is a democratic government that exists to protect me, and i have effect on it, in democratic elections.

The UN however, is ruled by dozens of dictatorships and anti-western countries. Furthremore, it has some european countries who have guilt complexities.

And, also, you can't disallow any credit to polititians. Otherwize you are admiting all social organization, historically established and constantly evolving, is simply wrong, without ofering nothing else in return.

You fail to understand that politic is different depedant on scales.

My government is the government of Israel. Therefore, it often has to make political decisions on the state level.

However, it has little political barriers when it comes to international policy.

The UN however, can only relate on an international level, and for it, the international politics is as difficult as inner state politics for Israel.

What I'm saying, is that just like Israel's government can't proclaim that the Religious parties are forcing certain decisions on it, the UN can't proclaim that the Muslim & Arab countries are forcing decisions on it.

But both things are true.

However, Israel is a democratic system with a seporated court and government and parliament.

The UN is not. The UN is a very hypocritical parliament with a majority of non-democratic leaders.

As for the UN's position I'm tired of historical references regarding what once upon a time was a pontual UN position regarding Israel. The fact is that both pro-Israel and pro-Palestinian claim the UN is against them simply because the UN current position is critical towards both sides.

That is not true.
Your opinion is simplistic and objectivist. Instead of looking at the facts and making a decision, you prefer a "they are all guilty" approach.

Please relate to the claims that General Taticus put up, and then try and say the UN is not anti-israel.

Since, in my opinion, both sides deserve criticism, and both sides are unilateraly perpetuating their disrespectfull atitude toward the rightfull desires of Peace, Land and Security of the human beings whose destinies they afect, while demanding the other to stop,

Please elaborate in how Israel is disrespectful towards peace, land and security.

I think the UN is, in this moment (aside with the EU, that also has a critical position towards both sides) the most unbiased organization, regarding the Israelli-Palestinian Conflict.

LOL

Obviously, letting a terrorist organization like Hezballa do it's thing is unbiased.

Tell me, how can an organization with a smashing anti-israeli majority (22 arab states, 1 israel) be "unbiased"?

Please note, that, when talking of the UN, I mostly talk of the position of the Secretary General and the Security Council.

The current security council includes syria - which overtly and covertly supports terror and terrorist organzations. Syria is a ground for terrorist training camps. Syria's capitol, damascus, is home to the main headquarters of 26 different terror organization, especially Hamas and Islamic Jihad.


Israel however, was never on the security council afaik.

[Ecthy]

Do you think that's because the UN is anti-semitic?

[Sirotnikov]

Kropotkin, Ecthelion - the UN has numerously suggested entering international forces, and only through US pressure didn't accept suggestions to call for an embargo.

Let's review how UN forces work in Lebanon:

When Israeli troops are abducted, they watch the incident, and then help the terrorists replace their tires, while the kidnapped soldiers are in the car, injured.

When terrorists are bombing Israel, UN forces only report when Israel bombs back.

Furthermore, UN forces are a base of supply for the terrorist. They are being robbed for supplies and ammo on a weekly basis.

[Fidel]

Re: Someone requested evidence of PA involvement in terror?

Originally posted by Sirotnikov

http://www.idf.il/newsite/english/main.asp

Dozens of files with all sources in source language and translated.


Two examples:

---

Captured documents and the interrogation of Operation "Defensive Shield" detainees demonstrate unequivocally the involvement of the PA General Intelligence in direct and indirect assistance to terrorist activities

The captured documents and detainees' interrogation prove beyond any doubt that the PA General Intelligence and other security apparatuses under Arafat's direct command, who, according to the agreements between Israel and the Palestinians were supposed to prevent terrorism from PA areas, instead turned into a central element in masterminding and encouraging terror and in assisting terrorist squads to perpetrate terrorist atrocities in Israel.

1. On 27 January 2002 a female suicide terrorist ,Wafaa Idris perpetrated a murderous terrorist attack in Jaffa Street ,Jerusalem. The terrorist attack was unusual in that it was the first suicide attack carried out by a Palestinian woman, and was a precedent for additional suicide attacks by Palestinian women. In the attack one Israeli civilian was killed and 131 injured.

2. A captured document of the PA Preventive Security Apparatus in Ramallah notes that the PA General Intelligence was involved in the attack. According to the document, the head of General Intelligence in the West Bank, Colonel Toufiq Tirawi, attempted, immediately after the attack to cover up the fact that Wafaa Idris (who was identified with the Fatah) carried out the attack. This apparently in order to conceal the fact that Fatah and the "Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades" were involved in a terrorist attack in the heart of Jerusalem.

3 .To this end Tirawi offered a "deal" to Wafaa's brother, who is wanted for attacks he carried out himself,whereby Tirawi would whisk him out to Jordan and in return the Idris family would refrain from declaring that Wafaa carried out the attack. However, the brother refused and said that he was not prepared to "sell" his sister's blood like that. Three days after the attack took place (30 January), only after the cover-up attempt failed, did the "Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades" claim responsibility for the attack.

4 .Wanted terrorist activists who were detained in Operation Defensive Wall, reported in their interrogation of the direct involvement of Tirawi and his men in recruiting terrorists, their preparation, and the supply of ammunition for their operations. In addition, in the possession of a General Intelligence official, Muhamed Araj, a Kalandia refugee camp resident, were found (16 April 2002) two explosive belts (one ready for use) and 2 suicide letters.

---

Beit Jala School Premises Converted into a Center of Terrorist Activities Against Israel

The head of the German Liaison Office to the Palestinian Authority protested againstthe turning of a Beit Jala School into a base for terror activities against Israel among civilian concentrations.

A captured document indicates that the head of the German Liaison office to the PA addressed a letter to Jibril Rajoub regarding the activities of armed Palestinians on the premises of "Talitakoumi" school in Beit Jala (the school is financed by the Protestant Church in Berlin). The letter was addressed on the background of apprehension that this could lead to an Israeli military reaction Jibril was therefore requested to assist in removing the gunmen from the school premises. It is of note that this school is situated on the Beit Jala ridge from where firing at Israeli vehicles on the Bethlehem bypass "tunnel road" was carried out. Turning the school, which is attended by some 1,000 students according to the captured document, into a terrorist activity center, once again demonstrates that the terror organizations are cynically exploiting the civilian population.

1. A document captured during Operation Defensive Shield unveils the use made by terrorist organizations of the premises of a school situated on the Beit Jala ridge, which is attended by some 1,000 students. The school serves the terror organizations as a base for firing at vehicles on the "tunnel road", the main highway connecting Hebron and Jerusalem (the original document and its translation are attached).

2 .Andreas Reinecke, the head of the German Liaison Office to the PA, addressed a letter on the subject to Jibril Rajoub, the head of the PA Preventive Security Apparatus, on March 5, 2002. Reinecke complained that armed Palestinian activists intend to act from the premises of "Talitakoumi" school .Reinecke added that if they succeed in doing so, this might provoke Israeli retaliatory reaction, which will have a negative influence on the continuation of the operation of the school. He notes that if the people in Germany will find out that the school is being used as a battle ground, this will stir trouble, as many Germans provide financial aid to the school, which enables it to exist .At the end of the letter, Jibril Rajoub is requested to ensure the security of the school for the benefit of the local Palestinians.

3 .Following are some comments regarding the above:
a. "Talitakoumi" school is situated on the Beit Jala ridge overlooking the "tunnel road" highway connecting Hebron and Jerusalem via Gush Etzion. This is a main transportation route for Israeli vehicles.
b. The "tunnel road" bypassing Bethlehem was built at considerable expense during the IDF's redeployment after the Oslo Accords. This was done in order to avert any extra friction between Israel and the Palestinian population by diverting the transportation route west of Bethlehem.
c. The "tunnel road" was attacked on scores of occasions from Beit Jala ridge, inflicting many casualties on Israel. Gunshots were fired at Israeli vehicles driving on the "tunnel road" from the "Talitakoumi" school area.
d .The terror activities conducted from an area as sensitive as a school with some 1,000 students, once again illustrate the cynical use which the terrorist organizations are making of the civilian population, amongst whom they find refuge and act from within their concentrations. It is noteworthy that the civilian population in the Beit Jala area, whose houses were turned into terror bases, has time and again expressed its dismay at being included in the fighting cycle, against its wishes. These protests even developed into local violent clashes in the past.

relax, nato won't bomb you even if you do not have the proofs.

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by Ecthelion
Do you think that's because the UN is anti-semitic?

the UN is anti-semitic because it's being ruled by anti-semitic countries.

things like democracy and law should be basis for entering the UN.

But Syria & PA & Iraq are all having thier fun.

[Kropotkin]

The UN however, is ruled by dozens of dictatorships and anti-western countries. Furthremore, it has some european countries who have guilt complexities.

The member states are in many instances not democratic but the UN itself is arguably in a general sence democratic. A democracy should first and foremost be labeled so after its processes for decision-making not the views of its members personal standpoint.