Someone requested evidence of PA involvement in terror?

[Ecthy]

could all of you stop trolling Siro now?

[Zoid]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov

How thoughtfull and unexpected.

You are aware that you are biased, I hope.

Yes, I´m aware of this. In fact I have argued that there is no unbiased sources in previous threads. Do pay attention, will you.

You have still to prove that the pals are as credible as the Israelis.

You decide that the Israelis are not credible based on your fantasies.

No I don´t

[Zoid]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov

Again, see?

You ignore everything except your assumptions.

You have failed to prove any zionist propoganda but you immediatelly blaim me of it.

You never even attempted to prove Palestinian propoganda, but you naively gulp everything they say.

You have not gone and read the actual evidence, but rather dismissed everything as "zionist propoganda".

Even though I have my reservations about muslim and palestinain sources, even I make sure to actually read the content before saying anything. You haven't. You don't care. You have already decided that the PA is innocent.

[Zoid]

Originally posted by rah


I think that's changing in the US. If you read the papers, not everyone is following it blindly anymore. Not all the negative comments in the editorials are written by people with arab sounding names. I personally used to be solidly pro-Israel, but now I question it considerably. If they continue down the road they're travelling now, I predict that broadbased US support will continue to deteriorate. I hear more and more that people think both sides are in the wrong. I never used to hear that. I think if the PA could stop the Attacks for an extended period, Israel would find itself forced to do something or lose considerable support (including dollars) from the US.

RAH

The question is of course who´s going to stop first? Justly I think it should be the Israelis. But I think you´re right, if the PA can somehow stop Hamas et al it would really put Israel on the spot. It´s good that the opinion is changing in the US, gives you some hope at least...

Originally posted by Ecthelion
could all of you stop trolling Siro now?

I´m done...

[Ecthy]

thanks

[Ecowiz Returns]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov
You are trumpeting palestinain claims all day. You called Jenin a massacare before there was any evidence to support that claim or disprove it (as finally happenned).

Siro, do you notice the problem of generalizations?
I don't recall ever to say that there was a massacre in Jenin.
I mentioned the possibility of war crimes and the sadness of realizing the Israelli Government was trying to prevent an
investigation. And the investigation was prevented.

Originally posted by Sirotnikov
We got in, captured presentable evidence, and when we present them to you, and you automatically dismiss them.

Your mind is already set and you are biased since you constantly choose to ignore lack of evidence and believe palestinain claims, and then ignore substantial evidence and disbelieve israeli claims.

Ecowiz - when you have evidence against a person it's obvious that he has done what he has done. The only thing remaining for the court to decide is of what degree is the act.

Quite the contrary: The First Thing the court has to decide is the Admissibility of the Evidence. Then they may decide on the degree of the act.

I'm no expert on the subject, therefore I choose an entity as a better judge than myself, which is not very different from your own position on this issue. I have chosen International Press and the UN as better judges than myself (mostly the UN). You, OTOH, have chosen the Israelli Governement and IDF. Of course you may claim the the UN and the International Press are biased against Israel: it's your opinion and I have to respect your right to an opinion. But you have chosen one side of the conflict to be your judge! You can't be more biased than that.

However, be sure to know that i'll read the evidence you presented here, and aknowledge the fact that you did presented it, before everyone else and in front of much scepticism, the moment I read about UN's recognition of the evidence you now presented.

Will that be OK?

[Ecowiz Returns]

Originally posted by rah
How many of you think the PA is NOT involved in terrorism in some way. I seriously would like to know what you educated people think deep down. Let's see a show of hands.

I do believe the PA is, in the very least, not doing it's job of criminalising the terracts. I do believe that, calling the terrorists martyrs and allowing them to have atributed the honours of martyrs in their funerals and in the way they treat their families does stimulate terrorist action.

Other than that, I still didn't find convincing proof.
I also have many reasons why I don't trust the evidence provided
under the command of military generals which, usually, are overly trigger-happy for my taste.

That's why I would like to wait for an aknowledgment from the UN.

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by CyberGnu
Siro, the Israeli court had to order the IDF to stop using torture only a few years ago. Since then the IDF has claimed that it stopped using 'overt torture', but it still uses methods like sleep deprivation, starvation, mental torture.

The Israeli court didn't order anyone to stop but rather made a verdict which outlawed torture in General.

The IDF isn't responsible for interrogations but GSS is, and according to interviews they haven't used actual physical torture for over 10 years.

As for sleep depravation - it's partial sleep depravation - meaning limiting the time one sleeps.

We're not talking about complete lack of sleep or anything.

I never heard of starvation being employed, and according to what I read they are being fed.

Mental torutre - you mean mental pressure I hope. And yes, it is employed. Just like any other country. Just like the police uses mental pressure. Do you expect them to spill it out over a cup of coffee or something?

If you are really curious, read ANY human rights report.

i've read palestinians accusing israel of all sorts of things, most of them proved to be untrue. Therefore you have to understand when I take their words with a grain of salt.

And before you lash out about how nasty the palestinians are or how that eskimos sometimes beat their dogs or why we should give back all land to the native americans, this thread is ONLY about the trustworthyness of a source that uses torture to extract information.

GSS does not employ physical torture afaik.

It does have a right to employ "limited physical pressure" if the are dealing with a "ticking bomb" situation, according to court.

and beside the torture, what would you say to someone who told you 'with one phonecall I can have a helicopter 'mistakenly' kill your whole family. Are you sure you can't invent some terrorist links for us?

Oh come on.

You're speaking bull**** again.

Israel never killed families on purpose and you know that. The worst we are doing is evicting terrorist families.


Again, you are equating mistaken identification cases, to cases which are obviously targetted slaughters - the terrorist acts.

You arne't a dumb person. You know that mistakes happen. For god's sake, USA's only casualties in Afghanistan were it's own people.

IDF also killed some of it's own on mistakes on times.

If you want to know how humanely IDF operates, why don't you read this first hand report:

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/05/12/magazine/12IDF.html?ex=1022347873&ei=1&en=87202a4bde333e05

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by Tau Ceti
Well, your choice of thread title suggests otherwise and I did not see you add any qualifiers, but if you only wanted to post this as a possible viewpoint then fair enough. You will have to forgive me for being a cynic and not accepting it all at face value, though.

Well true, since the thread title is meant to draw attention.

Also, while I do think that this is the truth, and I am saying "guys, this is what I think the truth is" I don't think that I ever "forced" anyone to believe this.

However, when people start talking nonsense and making rediculous claims about so called "zionist inventions" (the holocaust was an invention too, huh?) i get upset.

Obviously I understand that such claims are plausible in a conflict. However, I've been listening to claims on both sides and I think that IDF has credibility. I also think that the Pals have little credibility.

I was primarily talking about military and intelligence matters. Even in the most liberal democracy, these are not issues where there is free access to information. There are good and legitimate reasons for that and it is not particularly worth criticizing; however, it means that any information coming from official sources should be taken with a very big pinch of salt.

Why?

Officials are there to take care of things which shouldn't be public.

They do usually know what they are talking about.

There still hasn't been a case in Israel of a political conns by security sources.

How so? If the article is to be believed, many journalists have the army - a direct party to the conflict - as their main or sole source, and implies that many are more or less openly throwing pretenses of objectivity out the window. That is hardly trust-inducing if you ask me...

What is this army?

It's people. It's the same people. There could be no serious lies since after all, everyone are in the army, and people go to serve each year.

If the army was a closed professional army then it would be plausible to suspect it.

However, the army in Israel is really 'everyone'. Everyone serve and everyone know what's going on.

If you want to know the truth - you ask your neighbour / sibling.

I for instance had an interview with a teacher of mine who served in Bethlehem for 4 weeks.

Not sure what you are getting at here... What has changed in the last month? And whose opinions am I ignoring? Have I even said I disagree with something here?

I'm saying that the fact that there are such articles, doubting our position, proves that we are capable of close-to-objective view.

And I'm saying, that contrary to many people here (not you specifically), I tend to read things which I disagree with, and I tend to rethink my position.

I would argue that that is certainly no necessity, and that it reflects rather poorly on the Israeli government to do it. This is nothing more than propaganda.

To some extent - yes it is. I'm not a fan of "smooth talk" and I usually call things what they are (unless when I imagine i'm some bigshot PR guy )

But then again, do you think it's wise for Israel to allow encitement against it using it's own media?

I'm sure the US wouldn't like PBS in arabic to broadcast about "the illegal criminal war against the peaceful people of afghanistan".

Certainly. Is that supposed to be an excuse, though? There is obviously an agenda they are trying to push...

Obviously there is.

It is after all a PBS - it's supposed to be pro-state and all.

I will take your word for it. Anyway, I am not suggesting that Israel is a dictatorship that goes around censoring every newspaper article and every radio sound clip; just that the nature of the sources being used and the smaller likelihood of the reporters being able to detach themselves from the events at hand in general will tend to reduce their credibility. International news agencies should suffer less from this...

In the contrary.

Israeli news reporters keep close ties to all sources and infact are proud of the quantity of their arabic sources, both official and non-official, often within high ranks of the palestinian cabinet.

All the reporters about arabs for instance, are people with degrees in middle east studies, and are usually quite good friends with palestinian officials.

just recently a reporter told than when meeting with Jibril Rajoub to talk to him about "defensive shield" he brought him some quality food, since they are friends and at that time it wasn't easy getting groceries, especially for Rajoub who is now haunted by people of opposing factions.

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by Ecowiz Returns
Siro, do you notice the problem of generalizations?
I don't recall ever to say that there was a massacre in Jenin.

But most of the posters dismissing this evidence I brough did.

I'm sorry, but when adressing many people, it's only logical to sometimes generalize.

I mentioned the possibility of war crimes and the sadness of realizing the Israelli Government was trying to prevent an
investigation. And the investigation was prevented.

I find it wierd that you blame Israel for preventing the investigation, after it was the one that asked for it in the first place.

Israel wanted several rules for the investigation, to which the UN didn't agree - namely the right for witnesses not to incriminate themselves. And a right to see the conclusion some time in advance.

I don't see anything unreasonable.

Quite the contrary: The First Thing the court has to decide is the Admissibility of the Evidence. Then they may decide on the degree of the act.

The evidence were collected during a military operation.

There isn't a question of 'cause for search'. It's not a civil policing force.

I'm no expert on the subject, therefore I choose an entity as a better judge than myself, which is not very different from your own position on this issue. I have chosen International Press and the UN as better judges than myself (mostly the UN). You, OTOH, have chosen the Israelli Governement and IDF. Of course you may claim the the UN and the International Press are biased against Israel: it's your opinion and I have to respect your right to an opinion. But you have chosen one side of the conflict to be your judge! You can't be more biased than that.

But I continue to try and prove that while it has every reason to be biased, the Israeli media is going out of it's skin to try and stay impartial, or atleast close to it.

The problem with international press, is that it's too lazy and too unthorough and too PC to make hard conclusions. Usually they just repeat the official versions for the viewers.

However, be sure to know that i'll read the evidence you presented here, and aknowledge the fact that you did presented it, before everyone else and in front of much scepticism, the moment I read about UN's recognition of the evidence you now presented.

UN?

You must be joking.

Do you seriously believe that the UN is anything but a politicized bunch?


Tell me, do you also expect the evidence against UBL to be recognized by the UN?

[Ecthy]

Easy - since there hasn't been any, they won't, so we can't expect them to do that. On the contrary.

[Sirotnikov]

Ecthelion - how about the 2 or 3 tapes of him talking to his mates?

[Ecthy]

OK, the tapes are a point. But they're not real evidence, he might be showing off. Evidence would be stuff like bills, phone calls BEFORE the attack, and stuff like that. I'm not a fan of conspiracy theories though

[Lincoln]

Are people really waiting for the UN to confirm the evidence before they believe it? They are one of the most anit-Israeli organization on this planet. It is really too bad that people like Siro have to defend their right to even exist as a nation while the 'unbiased' Europeans will not change their views regardless of the evidence presented by anyone. Why don't you all admit that you really don't like Israel?

This 'opressor' thing is another joke. Israel responds to fanatics that kill innocent civiilians. If they stop killing the innocent then Israel will leave them alone. They don't want a state, they want to drive Israel into the sea.

If you want to talk about oppressed people then the blacks in the United States were oppressed. How did they gain their freedom? By non-violence. Palestians want to kill Jews because they hate them. They are taught to hate them as they grow up. They are not oppressed, they are a weak opponant that would blow Israel off of the face of the earth if they had the weapons. Israel does have the weapons but they show restraint in their use. God help them if the Palestians ever get the upper hand. Then you will learn the meaning of the word 'masacre'.

[Zoid]

Bull****! UN isn´t anti-Israel. Quite the opposite, they haven´t done squat for the palestinians. They ****ed them over good in 1948 and they still do today. All the resolutions in the world are useless when you can´t back them with real power. The USA and the spineless nature of the UN General Assembly prevents that.

So don´t talk about UN being anti-Israel. They support the zionist regime all the way.