Muslims, Intolerance, Portuyn and Liberals

[S. Kroeze]

Originally posted by Ned
I don't know whether Fortuyn was left or right, but what he had to say sounded very similar to what Hitler had to say about the Jews: they are different from "us;" they don't mix in, but keep separate; they attempt to change our culture, etc. This kind of attitude can only lead to discrimination and hate.

Frankly I found it amazing that in one of the posts on anti-Semitism in Europe, the defender of European purity blamed the anti-Semitism on "them," the muslim immigrants, who of course, are not European and are not "us."

Racism is very alive and well in Europe.

Ned

Dear Ned,

A few remarks:

1 You should distinguish between anti-Semitism, anti-Israel and anti-Zionism!
I am against Zionism since it will inevitably cause a Third World War -hopefully a small one. Many ultra-Orthodox Jews are ALSO against Zionism. For some reason this gets hardly any attention in the media, even when there are mass demonstrations of Orthodox Jews.

2 I agree that Fortuyn did say some disagreeable things about Muslims and Islam, but that was partly to crank up the discussion on this issue. Until recently it was almost impossible to mention any problems with immigrants and their integration in Dutch society. Even acknowledging the fact that a disproportionate number of Moroccan youngsters are criminals made you a fascist! ALL other political parties systemetically ignored the problem!

3 In my country I guess that anti-Semitic destructive activities -attacking synagogues, plastering cemeteries- is for at least 80% carried out by Muslim immigrants. Jews are undistinguishable from other Dutchmen and completely assimilated.
Muslim media like al-Jazira give a completely different picture of world politics. Israel and the support it receives from Europe and the USA are not popular among Muslims, to say the least.

4 Fortuyn was a staunch supporter of Israel, another reason for me not to vote for him.

5 Though Holland used to be the most tolerant country in the world, harassment of gays has risen demonstrably, mainly by Muslim youngsters. Quite recently an iman declared publicly that Europeans were worse than pigs because they tolerated homosexuality. Legal action was taken, but he was acquitted because of the freedom of religion.

6 Fortuyn can be considered right-wing/liberal -though not on all issues. Ironically his voters were largely former followers of our social-democratic party (PvdA). Until now, social-democrats and liberals ruled the country.

Tomorrow I will vote on the SP, the most left wing party in the country. Normally I vote for a more moderate party, but I am sick of the ruling elite, which has denied all serious problems.

[Natan]

Originally posted by S. Kroeze
1 You should distinguish between anti-Semitism, anti-Israel and anti-Zionism!

Until your post here, Israel was not mentioned in this thread and Jews only tangentially so. While I actually agree to a certain extent (I'm not sure how much one should distinguish between anti-Israel and anti-Zionism), I don't see how this is even vaguely relevant to the topic.

I am against Zionism since it will inevitably cause a Third World War -hopefully a small one. Many ultra-Orthodox Jews are ALSO against Zionism. For some reason this gets hardly any attention in the media, even when there are mass demonstrations of Orthodox Jews.

I can't speak for the Dutch media, but here anti-Zionist Orthodox Jews get their fair share of attention. Which is miniscule, because there numbers are somewhere less than 100,000 worldwide and their influence on American society approaches nil because of their insular society. As to why they get so little attention in the Dutch media, it's probably either because all the anti-Zionist Satmar Hassidim in the Netherlands could fit into one room, or because they are considered irrelevant.

2 I agree that Fortuyn did say some disagreeable things about Muslims and Islam, but that was partly to crank up the discussion on this issue. Until recently it was almost impossible to mention any problems with immigrants and their integration in Dutch society. Even acknowledging the fact that a disproportionate number of Moroccan youngsters are criminals made you a fascist! ALL other political parties systemetically ignored the problem!

So he had to propose an immigration moratorium and declare that Muslims were a century behind the west?

3 In my country I guess that anti-Semitic destructive activities -attacking synagogues, plastering cemeteries- is for at least 80% carried out by Muslim immigrants. Jews are undistinguishable from other Dutchmen and completely assimilated.

Obviously if they go to synagogues or visit Jewish graveyards they are distinguishable from other Dutchmen. Unless Dutch protestants are in the habit of visiting Jewish burial places and houses of worship.


IMHO, Fortuyn had a few decent points. I disagree with Ned's Hitler comparison, but it is a lot like the many countries which didn't want Jews (Germany was only one of dozens) in the first half of this century because of their supposed association with leftism.

[Ned]

Kroeze, I do distinguish between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism. However, I believe the strong anti-Zionism prevalent in Europe "encourages" the more radical to engage in hate attacks on the Jews, their cemeteries and places of worship.

George Bush went out of his way in his great speech after 9/11 to tell Americans that we would not and should not discriminate against American Muslims. Despite this, Muslims have suffered an increasing amount of suspicion and hate even here. I believe this is inevitable.

On Zionism causing a World War, I think you have it backwards. We are already in a World War, but fundamentalist Islam, not Zionism, is its cause. Fundamentalist Islam is far older that Zionism.

Ned

[Mr. President]

Absolutely right, Ned. This is only the latest battle in a war that began a thousand years ago. The Crusades, the Ottoman expansions, and even the Arab-Israeli wars were all but sub-battles of the cultural clash between fundamentalist Islam and the West.

[Dom Pedro II]

What definition of liberals are we using here? Classical or modern (i.e. U.S.)?

[Fidel]

Originally posted by Ned


There were an awful lot of Serbs beyond Milosevic who engaged in ethnic cleansing. It appalled me.

Ned

oh yes, you were an eyewitness

[Sikander]

Originally posted by LaRusso

unlike in the usa, where one can be a cannibal in his backyard as long as he pays the taxes?

You are thinking of Canada.

[Az]

BS.

For you apparently, if a guy didn't wish to suicid-bomb him-self in the name of Allah, he isn't truly a muslim ?

well, not everyone has to be suicide bombing. Some can also kill their sisters in order to protect the 'dignity of the family' , could also hate homosexuals.

Are jews still killing adulterer women ? No ? Yes are surely less religious, so !

yep, less religious. Btw , beating up women that are 'unproperly' dressed ,is a pretty common thing in religious jewish neighbourhoods, and by strange coinsidence these include these people that S.Kroeze included in his post, to prove some point I can't understand. Zionism is a jewish national movement, But does that make anti-zionists internationalists, and cosmopolitans? I don't think so.

In America, we seemed to have made distinctions between "traditional" Islam and "fundamentalist" Islam. We seem to believe that the former is a so-called "peaceful" religion. It is like much of Christianity in the West: tolerant of other religions and viewpoints.

yep, the "traditional muslim" expansionist wars are really a huge effort to bring world peace. Yes, sure christians were just as bad in dark and mid ages , but you don't see christians perfoming enquisitions, or going out on crusades ( well, except Bush )

In actual practice in America, we have Muslims just as we have fundamentalist Christians. We all live side by side and somehow get along peacefully. Yes, we try to extend our religious views. Be we do so "democratically," by argument and vote.

yes, of course , with schools teaching creationism ( as around some schools here ) , and local laws against homosexuality. maybe that's the rule of the majority at work , but remember that in democracy we also protect minorities.

Do you believe this is simply not possible with Muslims regardless of whether they are fundamentalists? Will they always choose violence and terror? I am not convinced.

Individuals no, but once a powerful religious establishment is inplace , and it has educational facilities, that will bring up the next generation to be the way it wants , I think there is a reason to be concerned , esp. with the percentage of muslims against non-muslims growing all around europe.

What I see in Europe, instead, is anti-religious intollerance. This is the same phenomenon that caused or at least contributed to the Holocost.

that's incorrect . Jews were persecuted because of their nationality , "race" , by the Nazis.

[ZoboZeWarrior]

Intolerance leads necessary to slaughters.

[Tom201]

If I have gotten Dals pov right, that is what religion is all about Zobo

[ZoboZeWarrior]

Religion r of course a piece of BS. Those who follow them blindly become intolerent for sure.

But intolerence against intolerence didn't work of course.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by ZoboZeWarrior
Religion r of course a piece of BS. Those who follow them blindly become intolerent for sure.

But intolerence against intolerence didn't work of course.

Yes, Yes, as opposed to tolerant atheisitic people like Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Kim Il Sung, etc., etc., etc.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Dalgetti

well, not everyone has to be suicide bombing. Some can also kill their sisters in order to protect the 'dignity of the family' , could also hate homosexuals.


yep, less religious. Btw , beating up women that are 'unproperly' dressed ,is a pretty common thing in religious jewish neighbourhoods, and by strange coinsidence these include these people that S.Kroeze included in his post, to prove some point I can't understand. Zionism is a jewish national movement, But does that make anti-zionists internationalists, and cosmopolitans? I don't think so.



yep, the "traditional muslim" expansionist wars are really a huge effort to bring world peace. Yes, sure christians were just as bad in dark and mid ages , but you don't see christians perfoming enquisitions, or going out on crusades ( well, except Bush )


yes, of course , with schools teaching creationism ( as around some schools here ) , and local laws against homosexuality. maybe that's the rule of the majority at work , but remember that in democracy we also protect minorities.


Individuals no, but once a powerful religious establishment is inplace , and it has educational facilities, that will bring up the next generation to be the way it wants , I think there is a reason to be concerned , esp. with the percentage of muslims against non-muslims growing all around europe.


that's incorrect . Jews were persecuted because of their nationality , "race" , by the Nazis.

Dal, Just because both Christianity and Islam has an aggressive warlike phase, they have both largely been peaceful in the last couple hundred years. What is your explanation for this?

On Hitler, if you read Mein Kampf, you distinctly get the impression that Hitler didn't like the Jews because they were "different." He cited numerous examples. It was not just race. Hitler was after "cultural" purity as well.

Ned

[Oldenbarnevelt]

Admitting more and more proponents of Islamic intolerance to our country will not help democracy and tolerance either. While against hatred, discrimination and intolerance, I simply cannot share the relativist view that Western and Islamic values are equivalent. IMO there's a strong case for refusing immigrants who do not share our basic values regarding democracy and secularism, freedom, equality of men and women, and equality of people regardless of their sexual preferences. Why should we go on importing backwardness and bigotry when there are so many potential immigrants from the Third World who would be proud to become members of a free Western society?

Btw, I voted VVD today, for the first time in my life. I used to vote for the PvdA (Social Democrats).

-

[Saint Marcus]

What definition of liberals are we using here? Classical or modern (i.e. U.S.)?

classical, since Spink is talking about Holland. Of course, he didn't realise that Liberals are right wing like Fortuyn is. Can't blame him though, being a business/crap student and all.

Btw, I voted VVD today, for the first time in my life. I used to vote for the PvdA (Social Democrats).

Booh on you. Dijkstal is a total moron. Melkert sadly isn't much better.

So I voted on Groenlinks Rosenmoller was the only guy who could stand up to Fortuyn.