Muslims, Intolerance, Portuyn and Liberals

[Solly]

Intolerance for intolerance...?

[Tom201]

Some points about the "Muslim Danger"
1. You have to take into account that muslims around here are more tolerant, liberal than in comparison with other countrys. You can really see the diffrence when you come from Germany and compare the general atitude of muslims.
2. We have about 800k muslims here. Thats out of 16mio. total population. -> 5%. So the "danger" isnt as big as some paint it
3. There is a good rate of ppl. converting from muslims to other religions or atheists around here.
4. IMO the "Conservative Danger" from muslims isnt much higher, than from Catholics (maybe we should expel them? )

[Saint Marcus]

Isn't Netherlands one of those European countries where the native population is declining, but the net popukation slightly increasing due to immigration?

Yes.

And 10% of the population is immigrant nowadays. Will probably rise, though the flow of immigrants has dropped by 25% over the last few years.

[Az]

I don't think Fortuyn is particularly right-wing at all. His attitude towards Islam was a result of his perception (rightly or wrongly) that Muslims themselves were far-right, in social terms; that is, homophobic, sexist, anti-euthanasia, anti-legalisation etc etc.

I find myself agreeing with him in that case .
Intolerance to intolerance. yep . Just as we do this to stupid nazis and white supremacists , I think we have the right to do it to people that think that being gay is wrong, ex-marital sex for women is punishable by death , even if they disguise it under the pretext of "religion".

[Az]

1. You have to take into account that muslims around here are more tolerant, liberal than in comparison with other countrys. You can really see the diffrence when you come from Germany and compare the general atitude of muslims.

that's because they're less religious , that is less muslim.

[Anodyne]

...and most important, I found Fortuyn to be much more sympathic than other right-wing politicians.
Of course, in a generally left-wing democracy he was immediately labeled far-right, but I hardly see him nearly as far right as Berlusconi, for example. In fact, he was quite moderate, he just had this nasty habit of shocking the crowd with surprising comments every now and then. And he had his reasons, which are very understandable when taken account into his position as a homosexual.

[morb]

what's wrong with any of that? except for the part where citizens would be expelled simply based on their faith or ethnicity that's wrong in anyone's eyes. But what's wrong with terminating emmigration and expelling people who violated the laws of a country and came/stayed illegally without merit?

tolorence is a sort of "live and let live" philosophy, not an, "accept everything" one. just because you are tolorent, doesn't mean that you should sit there and let people INVADE your country, even if its a "peacful" invasion, without weapons.

unless you're france, then you just pull open your ass cheecks and hope for the best.

[Ned]

I don't know whether Fortuyn was left or right, but what he had to say sounded very similar to what Hitler had to say about the Jews: they are different from "us;" they don't mix in, but keep separate; they attempt to change our culture, etc. This kind of attitude can only lead to discrimination and hate.

Frankly I found it amazing that in one of the posts on anti-Semitism in Europe, the defender of European purity blamed the anti-Semitism on "them," the muslim immigrants, who of course, are not European and are not "us."

Racism is very alive and well in Europe.

Ned

[Anodyne]

Racism is alive and well all around the world.

[Tom201]

that's because they're less religious , that is less muslim.

Interesting pov. That means the less though (less liberal) a Religion, the less real it is. So the only real Islam was the Talibans, the only real Christians the Crusaders. Or no?

[Ned]

Originally posted by Tom201

that's because they're less religious , that is less muslim.

Interesting pov. That means the less though (less liberal) a Religion, the less real it is. So the only real Islam was the Talibans, the only real Christians the Crusaders. Or no?

Whatever happened to "turn the other cheek?" Pacifism is the essence of Christianity, not the warmongering of Pope Innocent III.

Ned

[Tom201]

The point was its against Religion to be tolerant/liberal (interpreted from dals posts)

[markusf]

Originally posted by Tom201
Some points about the "Muslim Danger"
1. You have to take into account that muslims around here are more tolerant, liberal than in comparison with other countrys. You can really see the diffrence when you come from Germany and compare the general atitude of muslims.
2. We have about 800k muslims here. Thats out of 16mio. total population. -> 5%. So the "danger" isnt as big as some paint it
3. There is a good rate of ppl. converting from muslims to other religions or atheists around here.
4. IMO the "Conservative Danger" from muslims isnt much higher, than from Catholics (maybe we should expel them? )

They posted a interview by him on MSNBC, and he said he didn't like muslems entering the country because it made it unstable. He said muslims make no distinction between religion and state, and that puts them a good 1000 years behind in development as the rest of the world. I'd have to agree with his views, any time you mix church and state your just asking for trouble.

[Boris Godunov]

A guy in my office is Dutch, and we discussed the Fortuyn situation. The media really did distort his views. He's about as right-wing as an American centrist like Clinton.

I think his views on Muslims wasn't racist (first of all, muslims aren't a race, it's a faith). I think he was making a valid point that the continued influx of people who come from areas where there is no separation of church and state and the states are hugely reactionary and oppressive was a cause of concern. He perhaps overstated the dangers with hyperbole (as all politicians are wont to do), but I can't say that I'd be happy with tolls such immigration might take on the Dutch economy and their political way of life.

And remember, he wasn't calling for expulsion. Just a limiting of the influx. And so what if he wanted to expel illegals? What's the point of having a status such as "illegal alien" if you don't kick those people out for not immigrating legally?

[Shi Huangdi]

The basic argument used here is that Moslems have a different culture, so therefore it's ok to discriminate against them coming in. :