Muslims, Intolerance, Portuyn and Liberals

[Tom201]

Well, I have yet to see muslims marching the streets demonstrating against hollands liberalism

There hasnt been any political activity in this direction, so the concerns arent really backed up with reallife (inside holland).

[Fidel]

Originally posted by Shi Huangdi
The basic argument used here is that Moslems have a different culture, so therefore it's ok to discriminate against them coming in. :

unlike in the usa, where one can be a cannibal in his backyard as long as he pays the taxes?

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by LaRusso


unlike in the usa, where one can be a cannibal in his backyard as long as he pays the taxes?

not only his taxes... (it is not so easy as that)

he also has to swear allegiance to the US flag and everything it stands for (which in this case at least would be appropriate)

[Az]

Paiktis, you just can't stop , can you?

The point was its against Religion to be tolerant/liberal (interpreted from dals posts)

why that's EXACTLY what am I saying !
do you really think that religious leaders would change their ways , considering .... well almost anything , if the enlightment period wouldn't have existed ? Of course , now they're all warm and cozy, but that's not how it has been for Millenia!

I am not a great fan of the "west " , Europe , and the US , as they're capitalist, and everyone knows what my stance on that is , but it's much better than Islamic countries! And unlike western countries, where the population is supposedly christian , but actually is atheist/agnostic , or non-practicing at worst , in the muslim countries , the whole population is religious , and that population is growing , with no connection to life standards, as some tend to claim (This could easily be seen from birth rates in the richest arab states , as the Gulf emirates ) .

Well, I have yet to see muslims marching the streets demonstrating against hollands liberalism

well, in countries like Russia , in some regions ( that have certain local legislative power) , muslims are the majority , and moves against liberalism ARE made. I CLEARLY remember this , though I can't send you to an online source. Also , as seen from the activities of muslims in the south of russia, where a local muslim leader ,an Imam of the area , that is supposed to be mainstream and mellow , is currently suspected in an attempt to form a muslim state in the south of Russia. Also the threat of Islam is crearly demonstrated by the Chechniya case , in which it was a muslim cause that pushed towards separation from the young Russian Federation , that was at first successful . a virtually independent state existed for around 5 years, IIRC (I remember that it was there for a couple of years, the exact number is what I am not sure of).

In that state all the muslim laws were practiced , including the strictest ones. That pseudo-state also practiced terrorism against civilians in adjacent regions of the federation , and all around Russia, practiced kidnapping and extortion, slavery , brutal , and inhumane killings of people ( sculping, cutting off fingers and limbs , etc. ) .
That evil regime was to be crushed when it dared to start a similar state in a neighbouring region, only to be counter-attacked and run to the ground.

[ZoboZeWarrior]

Originally posted by Dalgetti
that's because they're less religious , that is less muslim.

BS.

For you apparently, if a guy didn't wish to suicid-bomb him-self in the name of Allah, he isn't truly a muslim ?

Are jews still killing adulterer women ? No ? Yes are surely less religious, so !

[Ned]

Originally posted by Dalgetti
Paiktis, you just can't stop , can you?


why that's EXACTLY what am I saying !
do you really think that religious leaders would change their ways , considering .... well almost anything , if the enlightment period wouldn't have existed ? Of course , now they're all warm and cozy, but that's not how it has been for Millenia!

I am not a great fan of the "west " , Europe , and the US , as they're capitalist, and everyone knows what my stance on that is , but it's much better than Islamic countries! And unlike western countries, where the population is supposedly christian , but actually is atheist/agnostic , or non-practicing at worst , in the muslim countries , the whole population is religious , and that population is growing , with no connection to life standards, as some tend to claim (This could easily be seen from birth rates in the richest arab states , as the Gulf emirates ) .


well, in countries like Russia , in some regions ( that have certain local legislative power) , muslims are the majority , and moves against liberalism ARE made. I CLEARLY remember this , though I can't send you to an online source. Also , as seen from the activities of muslims in the south of russia, where a local muslim leader ,an Imam of the area , that is supposed to be mainstream and mellow , is currently suspected in an attempt to form a muslim state in the south of Russia. Also the threat of Islam is crearly demonstrated by the Chechniya case , in which it was a muslim cause that pushed towards separation from the young Russian Federation , that was at first successful . a virtually independent state existed for around 5 years, IIRC (I remember that it was there for a couple of years, the exact number is what I am not sure of).

In that state all the muslim laws were practiced , including the strictest ones. That pseudo-state also practiced terrorism against civilians in adjacent regions of the federation , and all around Russia, practiced kidnapping and extortion, slavery , brutal , and inhumane killings of people ( sculping, cutting off fingers and limbs , etc. ) .
That evil regime was to be crushed when it dared to start a similar state in a neighbouring region, only to be counter-attacked and run to the ground.

In America, we seemed to have made distinctions between "traditional" Islam and "fundamentalist" Islam. We seem to believe that the former is a so-called "peaceful" religion. It is like much of Christianity in the West: tolerant of other religions and viewpoints.

In actual practice in America, we have Muslims just as we have fundamentalist Christians. We all live side by side and somehow get along peacefully. Yes, we try to extend our religious views. Be we do so "democratically," by argument and vote.

Do you believe this is simply not possible with Muslims regardless of whether they are fundamentalists? Will they always choose violence and terror? I am not convinced.

What I see in Europe, instead, is anti-religious intollerance. This is the same phenomenon that caused or at least contributed to the Holocost.

Ned

[Fidel]

Originally posted by Ned
In America, we seemed to have made distinctions between "traditional" Islam and "fundamentalist" Islam. We seem to believe that the former is a so-called "peaceful" religion. It is like much of Christianity in the West: tolerant of other religions and viewpoints.

since when is christianity tolerant? 'follow the shoe!', 'follow the sandal!' 'argh, infidels, now you will die for putting a coma on the wrong place in this manuscript!' 'no, no, you die because your priests go around altar three times instead of two during the service'

In actual practice in America, we have Muslims just as we have fundamentalist Christians.

so fundy christians are as bad as 'normal' muslims?

What I see in Europe, instead, is anti-religious intollerance. This is the same phenomenon that caused or at least contributed to the Holocost.

Ned

what i see in america are one-liners about european anti-semitism. let me make a parallel. during the reign of slobodan milosevic, we were told that 'the west is not against the serbian people, but that they really hate our ruler'. so, we all like jews, it is just that we have a bit of a problem with sharon. if, of course, you can swallow this explanation

[Saint Marcus]

What I see in Europe, instead, is anti-religious intollerance.

c'mon Ned. I always believed you were an intelligent poster, so you must be trolling with all these posts right?

If you are, kudos to you. 9/10

if you are not, and mean what you say than you have got a very distorted view of Europe.

And note that the person you responded to isn't from Europe.

[Tom201]

@Dalgetti
So we shouldnt trust any religious ppl., cose they never can be tolerant. And when the US president claims to be a christian we should prepare for the 2. inquisition?

[Ned]

Originally posted by Saint Marcus


c'mon Ned. I always believed you were an intelligent poster, so you must be trolling with all these posts right?

If you are, kudos to you. 9/10

if you are not, and mean what you say than you have got a very distorted view of Europe.

And note that the person you responded to isn't from Europe.

Saint Marcus, I see a lot of bigotry in Europe. I also see a lot of bigotry in America. We need less of it, in my view. People with different ways of living have come to the United States and enriched its culture. I think the same can be true of Europe.

As can be seen from the posts here, hatred of religion, from Christianity to Islam, exists.

Ned

[Ned]

Originally posted by LaRusso


since when is christianity tolerant? 'follow the shoe!', 'follow the sandal!' 'argh, infidels, now you will die for putting a coma on the wrong place in this manuscript!' 'no, no, you die because your priests go around altar three times instead of two during the service'



so fundy christians are as bad as 'normal' muslims?



what i see in america are one-liners about european anti-semitism. let me make a parallel. during the reign of slobodan milosevic, we were told that 'the west is not against the serbian people, but that they really hate our ruler'. so, we all like jews, it is just that we have a bit of a problem with sharon. if, of course, you can swallow this explanation

There were an awful lot of Serbs beyond Milosevic who engaged in ethnic cleansing. It appalled me.

Ned

[Saint Marcus]

As can be seen from the posts here, hatred of religion, from Christianity to Islam, exists.

Of course it does. But still the (vast) mayority of Europeans is religious.

And there are few places on this planet where "hatred" of religion is more common than Europe. That's because when it comes to secularisation we are a stage ahead of most. But, to balance things out, there is also far fewer hatred towards homosexuals here (generally speaking).

Also note that Fortuyn was very religious himself (he was a devout catholic, despite being gay).

[Dr Strangelove]

Chechnya is one of the six countries in the world were homosexuality is a capital offense. The other five are all Islamic nations too.

[Shi Huangdi]

All of this anti-Islamic BS sounds alot like the Anti-Catholic BS that was prominent early in this country. Often times reformers of the era would argue against allowing "The Priest ridden troops of the Holy Alliance" to enter this country. They argued that Catholics immigrants did not have any positive view of liberty, and were obedient to whatever their priests said like flocks of sheep.

It was BS then, it is BS now.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Shi Huangdi
All of this anti-Islamic BS sounds alot like the Anti-Catholic BS that was prominent early in this country. Often times reformers of the era would argue against allowing "The Priest ridden troops of the Holy Alliance" to enter this country. They argued that Catholics immigrants did not have any positive view of liberty, and were obedient to whatever their priests said like flocks of sheep.

It was BS then, it is BS now.

Shi, Actually, these very same arguments were used against Kennedy. I remember them clearly.

Saint Marcus, In America, the Caltholic clergy is almost dominated by gay priests. This has been an issue in the current pedophilia crisis. I must admit though, I am not sure of the Church's stand on homosexuality.

I once, in another forum, argued that Christianity changed the Roman Empire for the better. I really got dumped upon. Almost everyone thought that Christianity was the source of evil -- not the source of good. Almost no one was willing to acknowledge that the whole concept of human rights, taking care of the poor, and equality of all people found its origin in Christianity. These are not Roman concepts. Neither are they German.

The perversion of the Catholic Church occurred in the Middle Ages when religion became too closely associated with the state. This lead to conquest on behalf of religion, tortures and burnings at the stake, and corruption galore. I also believe the Jews were repeatedly massacred because of Christianity.

I believe, though, that the bulk of Christianity is now disassociated from the state and merely teaches its members how to lead a virtuous life. It also ministers to the poor. In this posture, Christianity is good. (I admit, there remain some aggressive fundamentalist Christians.)

I was therefor surprised on how strong the anti-Christian feelings were. I am not surprised that anti-Islam feelings are just as strong.

In Europe, the anti-Islam feelings appear to be primarily targeted at immigrants. (I for the moment will leave the Serbs out of this.) It is one thing to defend liberality. It quite another to discriminate based upon religion and national origin.

Ned