US Opts Out of World Court

[David Floyd]

Unjustified to who?

Unjustified by definition - if I have done nothing, walking up and shooting me is inherently immoral and unjustified.

More UN agencies should reach this lofty status. Better to have something permanently in place rather than just making up tribunals whenever you feel that need. Much better to have a permanent Supreme Court of the US, rather than making up tribunals of Appeals Court Justices whenever a federal question came up where different Appeals Courts or State Courts disagreed.

There's a fundamental difference between SCOTUS and the ICC.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by MrFun


David, David, David --- what to do about David??

Your position about Nazis and their crimes is the looniest I have seen yet.

Where did I call YOU a loon??
I merely stated that your argument about the Nazis is really loony.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by David Floyd


Yes, and Hitler DIDN'T have a history of executing those who opposed him or could become threats, even his friends and/or advisors. Ernst Roehm, for example, CERTAINLY wasn't killed by Hitler, nor was Erwin Rommel.

Rommel wasn't, he committed suicide. Sure, he was ordered to, but keep in mind--he also had committed a treason. That's different from not following orders.

But yes, I'm sure some would be killed for not following orders. But the Nazi m.o. for recruiting SS Guards for camps (particularly Ukrainians) was finding the most savage bunch of animals they could who would do the job without qualms. Any of these men could claim after the fact they were only acting under orders and were forced, but many prisoners and other guards testified this was not the case. Rather, these men enjoyed their work and did it willingly. Does that not make a difference?

While you can argue it for the train drivers, maybe, you certainly can't argue it for Himmler or Goebbels. They planned it, wanted it, loved it and had it fully within their power to not do it. Hitler wasn't the only one who wanted genocide, his top men were right there with him.

Also, Gustav Krupp was charged, as were Wilhelm Keitel and Erich Raeder. The first was an industrialist and the latter two a field marshall and grand admiral, respectively.

So these men obviously did nothing wrong?

How's that relevant? Willing or not, refusal would have been, shall we say, not good for them.

As Stangl himself admitted while serving his term in prison, he and every one of them could have done more. A lot more. But how many of them wanted to?

[Imran Siddiqui]

Unjustified by definition - if I have done nothing, walking up and shooting me is inherently immoral and unjustified.

Killing Hitler in 1922, I'd say that was justified.

There's a fundamental difference between SCOTUS and the ICC.

Detail the fundamental differences.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Much better to have a permanent Supreme Court of the US, rather than making up tribunals of Appeals Court Justices whenever a federal question came up where different Appeals Courts or State Courts disagreed.

Do you not see a distinction between the national and international levels of law?

BTW, here's the last part of my previous post in case you missed it:

On what do you base the claim? Ad hoc tribunals don't count for this comparison, so you can forget mentioning the Milosevic trial.

Now, on what do you base the claim that the World Court will be both cost effective and efficent?

[Imran Siddiqui]

Now, on what do you base the claim that the World Court will be both cost effective and efficent?

I already told you. Supreme Court verses ad hoc Appeals Court tribunal.

It is also refered to as common sense .

Do you not see a distinction between the national and international levels of law?

I'm saying that there probably should not be one, or the distinction narrowed.

[David Floyd]

Boris,

Rommel wasn't, he committed suicide. Sure, he was ordered to, but keep in mind--he also had committed a treason. That's different from not following orders.

Actually he had nothing to do with the July 20 Plot - he refused to be involved. Hitler decided he was a threat (which he certainly could have been), and forced his death.

But yes, I'm sure some would be killed for not following orders. But the Nazi m.o. for recruiting SS Guards for camps (particularly Ukrainians) was finding the most savage bunch of animals they could who would do the job without qualms. Any of these men could claim after the fact they were only acting under orders and were forced, but many prisoners and other guards testified this was not the case. Rather, these men enjoyed their work and did it willingly. Does that not make a difference?

Frankly no - and methods of recriutment made no difference to the victorious Allies - they would have prosecuted a draftee who gassed Jews just as readily as a volunteer.

While you can argue it for the train drivers, maybe, you certainly can't argue it for Himmler or Goebbels. They planned it, wanted it, loved it and had it fully within their power to not do it. Hitler wasn't the only one who wanted genocide, his top men were right there with him.

Certainly so. That is morally reprehensible. But, was it illegal? Nope.

So these men obviously did nothing wrong?

Not really, especially when compared to people like Curtis LeMay and FDR (who allowed the death of thousands of US sailors in order to galvanize the public for war). Raeder especially did nothing wrong, nor did Keitel - Hitler was in direct command of the armed forces, remember, and issued even these high ranking officers their marching orders. Krupp's only "crime" was employing slave labor, AFAIK, yet this was totally legal, and in any case if he didn't do it he would have been forced to by Hitler.

As Stangl himself admitted while serving his term in prison, he and every one of them could have done more. A lot more. But how many of them wanted to?

How is "not doing enough" to resist orders worthy of prison? Hell, none of them wanted to for fear of consequences.

[Boris Godunov]

[SIZE=1]

Killing Hitler in 1922, I'd say that was justified.

Historical hindsight is 20/20, eh?

If you had no idea of the future at that time and all you knew was Hitler was just a hotheaded jerk who hadn't yet done anything wrong, the justification evaporates, doesn't it?

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
I'm saying that there probably should not be one, or the distinction narrowed.

Then you are going about it the wrong way. You'd have to give the UN a permanent army to command in order to do away with the distinction.

[David Floyd]

If you had no idea of the future at that time and all you knew was Hitler was just a hotheaded jerk who hadn't yet done anything wrong, the justification evaporates, doesn't it?

Exactly so.

[David Floyd]

Then you are going about it the wrong way. You'd have to give the UN a permanent army to command in order to do away with the distinction.

That would be truly frightening.

[Imran Siddiqui]

If you had no idea of the future at that time and all you knew was Hitler was just a hotheaded jerk who hadn't yet done anything wrong, the justification evaporates, doesn't it?

Well, he did state that the killing is always unjustified.

And after Mein Kampf and the Nazi party taking power... well, you know.

And others that you could be sure of would amount to evil... OBL after the embassy bombings, for example.

[Imran Siddiqui]

That would be truly frightening.

I'd support a UN standing Peacekeeping Army. It could have sent it into the ME as a buffer between Israel and Palestine.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by David Floyd
That would be truly frightening.

Yes, it would be. But it would also be the only way to remove the state of international anarchy that he seems to abhor.

[David Floyd]

Well, he did state that the killing is always unjustified.

I said murder is always unjustified, which is simply a truism as I define murder as an unjustified killing. Basically what I'm doing is establishing an absolute moral - that it is always wrong to commit an unjustified killing.

I'd support a UN standing Peacekeeping Army. It could have sent it into the ME as a buffer between Israel and Palestine.

Great - let's let Americans die fr other people's problems!