French Elections : Will Le Pen make it to the second round?

[lord of the mark]

Re: pop-up

Originally posted by Ecthelion


we're talking "immigrants" as opposed to "Jews, who have probably lived there for generations"

while there certainly are Jews who have lived in France for generations, the majority of the Jews of France today are immigrants from North Africa, or their children or grandchildren, who mainly came to France between 1948 and 1962.

Granted there is no prospect of further Jewish migration to France, as there are hardly any Jews left in North Africa, putting them in a seperate category as far as Le Penism is concerned, but I think the North African origin of French Jewry is worth keeping in mind in the current crisis. For one thing the Nroth African Jews have been much more Zionist, and much less inclined to avoid making trouble than Ashkenazic (european origin) French jew have been. also the notion that Israel is a "foreign, colonial intrusion" in the middle east obviously makes no sense them.

LOTM

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by paiktis22



It has been said, a lot of times, that some in Israel and some Jewish people in general when someone critizes present Israeli policies in the Middle East immideatly and automatically they label him/her as an "anti-semetic".

Not only is it, well, ridiculous, it is also counter - productive because the word "anti-semitic" loses its original meaning. And that, IMHO, is dangerous.

NOt everyone who criticizes Israel is anti-semitic - israelis criticize their own government all the time. But almost all anti-semites ARE anti-Israel, and being anti-Israeli is a good cover for anti-semitism. And people who treat Israel more harshly than other nations, who criticize it unfairly, may be reasonably suspected of anti-semitism. This applies a fortiori to those who deny the right of israel to exist, who state thereby that the Jews have no right to a state. And i believe it applies to those who fail to see that the security needs of Israel must be seen in the context of past anti-semitism, including the holocaust. And as for those who focus their rhetoric on "the Israeli lobby". on alleged "pro-israeli" influence in the press, their anti-semitism is only thinly veiled.

LOTM

[Imran Siddiqui]

And as for those who focus their rhetoric on "the Israeli lobby". on alleged "pro-israeli" influence in the press, their anti-semitism is only thinly veiled.

This is exactly what Paiktis was talking about.

Hatred of the Israeli state (or the pro-Israeli media and lobby) doesn't automatically equal hatred for all Jews.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Boddington's
Natan,

"The way crime has moved to the centre of the political debate in France has played into Le Pen's hands.

And the post-11 September mood - in which for the first time even politicians of the left speak of the disproportionate number of crimes committed by North African Arabs - also helps."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/europe/newsid_1938000/1938190.stm

Does anyone else find it odd that, given the current situation in the MiddleEast, the Jews here are complaining about the political advancement of a right-wing candidate who is openly against immigration?

Well of course - we dont want anti- arab racists!!! Racism against Arabs is wrong in itself, and will most certainly end up being anti-Jewish as well (even if we did not already know that Le Pen is anti-Jewish) The mideast conflict is a dispute between two nations over land and security, and is not about race hatred, at least as far as 98% of Jewish Israelis and many Palestinians are concerned.

LOTM

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

And as for those who focus their rhetoric on "the Israeli lobby". on alleged "pro-israeli" influence in the press, their anti-semitism is only thinly veiled.

This is exactly what Paiktis was talking about.

Hatred of the Israeli state (or the pro-Israeli media and lobby) doesn't automatically equal hatred for all Jews.

Paiktis said "criticism" of the Israeli state. There is a difference between criticism and hatred.

and references to pro-israeli media are virtually word for word imitations of traditional anti-semitic rants.

"i dont hate all blacks - just these civil rights radicals who dont know their place" - would anyone deny that is racism?? Similarly "I dont hate all Jew - just the 98% who think that there should be a Jewish state in the world" - That is rather different from "I dont hate jews, but i think israel should dismantle all settlements"

LOTM

[Imran Siddiqui]

Similarly "I dont hate all Jew - just the 98% who think that there should be a Jewish state in the world"

I've never heard ANYONE say this.

and references to pro-israeli media are virtually word for word imitations of traditional anti-semitic rants.

Once again . The US media is very pro-Israel, as most lefties (who aren't the ones to be anti-semetic) can tell you.

[Lonestar]

French Nazis. I hate those guys.

[Faeelin]

Paik, consider the following:

1) If Israel gets beaten thanks to the support Europe gives the Arabs, what will happen?

well:
1) Israelis flee as they're viciously slaughtered. Mind you, they're not people like you, so it's okay.

or:

2) The israelis, in retaliation, nuke several dozen arab cities. Henceforth, the Muslims pray towards the glowing rock.

3) They nuke brussels. If the Europeans were helping, say, Mexico conquer the USA, and the stated goal of mexico was the destruction of America's people, I'd support nuking the European capital.

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by Faeelin
Paik, consider the following:

1) If Israel gets beaten thanks to the support Europe gives the Arabs, what will happen?

well:
1) Israelis flee as they're viciously slaughtered. Mind you, they're not people like you, so it's okay.

or:

2) The israelis, in retaliation, nuke several dozen arab cities. Henceforth, the Muslims pray towards the glowing rock.

3) They nuke brussels. If the Europeans were helping, say, Mexico conquer the USA, and the stated goal of mexico was the destruction of America's people, I'd support nuking the European capital.

I wouldn't support Nuking unless the Euros were actively adding and abetting the enemy. There's a difference between expressing sympathy for a bad, bad group of people, and actually arming and funneling resources.

Incidently, I think Europe is showing a incredible misplacement of sympathies in this war, and would not be adverse to having them try to force the issue. (After which the USA would step in, thus driving Europe's impotence even further home)

[Faeelin]

Ah, but hasn't Paik repeatedly advocating arming and abetting the Palestinians? And the Arabs? Heck, he's done the latter in this thread.

[Imran Siddiqui]

1) Israelis flee as they're viciously slaughtered. Mind you, they're not people like you, so it's okay.

Um... no... if Israel gets beaten, they they have to suffer a humilating peace accord, just like the Arabs had to. As my g/f says, Israel needs to lose a war. Not badly, but just beaten.. and forced to make peace.

[Drake Tungsten]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

1) Israelis flee as they're viciously slaughtered. Mind you, they're not people like you, so it's okay.

Um... no... if Israel gets beaten, they they have to suffer a humilating peace accord, just like the Arabs had to. As my g/f says, Israel needs to lose a war. Not badly, but just beaten.. and forced to make peace.

Seriously though, what "humiliating peace accord" are you talking about? The one that gave Egypt all of its territory back? The one Jordan signed, which has helped out its economy tremendously? Or the peace accords that all the rest of the Arab powers have never signed? Israel still isn't recognized by most of the Arab world. How exactly were the Arabs humiliated? They may have been embarrassed by getting their asses kicked so badly, but Israel hasn't gotten jack **** out of any peace accords.

[Imran Siddiqui]

but Israel hasn't gotten jack **** out of any peace accords.

Um... so wait, Israel never was in possession of the Sinai? And they still aren't in the Golan Heights? Oh, and those troops in the Shebaa Farms aren't Israeli?

[Drake Tungsten]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

but Israel hasn't gotten jack **** out of any peace accords.

Um... so wait, Israel never was in possession of the Sinai? And they still aren't in the Golan Heights? Oh, and those troops in the Shebaa Farms aren't Israeli?

Don't act stupid, Imran. Israel gave the Sinai back to Egypt when they signed their peace accord. Consequently, Israel didn't gain anything from the peace treaty (besides peace). Hardly a "humiliating peace accord".

As for the Golan Heights, they belonged to Syria. Tell me Imran, have Israel and Syria ever signed a peace accord?

[Imran Siddiqui]

Israel gave the Sinai back to Egypt when they signed their peace accord.

The 2nd Peace Accord... in '73, IIRC.