Should South Africa have racial quotas for rugby?

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by finbar
You should see the stuff that's flying backwards and forwards this week between the NSW Waratahs and Queensland Reds leading up to Sunday's match. Some of it's very funny, most of it is incredibly offensive. There's a long, long history of antagonism between them. If you get a chance to watch the match, grab it. Should be great fun!

Yeah, I read about that...funny stuff.

Whats your prediction? I expect the Waratahs to win.

[Havak]

Ah well I can offer some confirmation on some of that, having read both Healey's and Eddie Butler (the ghost writer's) accounts fo the debacle. I'm afraid Eddie was rather naughty and embellished some things - he is also responsible for plod, plank, ape etc none of which came from Austin's mouth.

But, and I know this will not go down well, there was some substance in some of what Healey said. Now don't panic, I'm not whole heartedly agreeing with him, but there are some grains of truth hidden within.

Austin said that the ARU and your TV and printed media treated the Lions abysmally. This is very true in my personal experience. I have never before been told at a ground on tour that we were not welcome and that the entire nation did not care what we thought about it - this happened to me in Melbourne as the Channel 7 anchor warmed up the Wallaby crowd to hate Brits - what was that all about? I would be mortified if we ever did that to you at HQ.

Your TV in general was very strange - I was very disappointed to see even good old gold wearers like Budda (sic?) and Farr-Jones joining in the general animosity towards the Lions players foolish enough to enter the studio. The newspapers were even worse - reacting rapidly to the slightest comment from the Lions camp whilst hurling insults the other way and then getting upset when the "Poms who can't take a joke" complained. Double standards does come to mind

Austin therefore said, and this is para-phrased, "Don't dish it if you can't take it" and to your media in particular "as you will not apologise for anything don't expect me to". The whole thing then got blown into a massive controversy.

Maybe Austin should have apologised to defuse the situation (though I don't recall Gregan ever apologising for saying he "hates Brits" on TV?), and being Austin he certainly should not have kept stirring the pot as he did - there he messed up big time and as you say gave the Wallabies all the motivation they needed.

Still he will be back there for RWC and I'm sure he'll get a warm and friendly welcome from all of Oz?

I hope it wasn't lost on you that all but two of the Lions squad were polite to a fault about their hosts - and that even one of those apologised (Dawson). With Gregan and Burke on your side that kind of made us even for idiots?

Okay basically my assertion here is that your media built him up into a super-villain beyond all proportion to what was actually said? Ultimately though I guess and Aussie and a Pom are never going to agree on this one right?

To the extent that even his own management said he was working against the team's interests by firing up the opposition

Ah a bit of a flawed point there - both motor mouth and Jonno, amongst others, cite this as one of the ways in which Henry failed in coaching the Lions. He had no empathy or understanding for his squad and didn't realise the way the Aussie media was undermining them. By saying the above he undermined them even further before THE crucial game.

It's fair to say the Lions tour ended Graham's faux reputation from his Blues days, and hastened Wales sacking of him. If you can possibly stand it do read either Healey's or Johnsons' books (in fact Martin doesn't have a bad word to say about Oz or the Wallabies - a small reference to Harrison trying to blag the shirt he had promised Ealesy is all) to understand how Graham's approach differed from that now used by England, Oz and the AB's.

And as for the tour manager - Donal is a hell of a nice guy but was a fish out of water - just not up to the job. Mark my words in NZ in 2005 the Lions will have a Brit or Irish coach and a Professional management team including a press officer who does a better job of representing the squad than the last muppet did.

The day after the test in Brisbane last year the league *spit* sides for Qland and NSW played there and we saw far more animosity than we ever did twict Lion and Wallaby fans - I'm guessing the Union rivalry is as intense?

[finbar]

Originally posted by Caligastia


Yeah, I read about that...funny stuff.

Whats your prediction? I expect the Waratahs to win.

The nicest line came from New South Welshman Simon Poidevin alluding to the film "Deliverance" and inbreeding. He said it was nice having Queenslanders in the Wallaby team because you were always guaranteed a couple of good banjo players.

The Waratahs should win. Chris Latham is, literally, carrying the Reds. But don't underestimate the Queenslanders' passion for beating NSW. It could lift them. Whether far enough is a different matter.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
Ah well I can offer some confirmation on some of that, having read both Healey's and Eddie Butler (the ghost writer's) accounts fo the debacle. I'm afraid Eddie was rather naughty and embellished some things - he is also responsible for plod, plank, ape etc none of which came from Austin's mouth.

But, and I know this will not go down well, there was some substance in some of what Healey said. Now don't panic, I'm not whole heartedly agreeing with him, but there are some grains of truth hidden within.

Austin said that the ARU and your TV and printed media treated the Lions abysmally. This is very true in my personal experience. I have never before been told at a ground on tour that we were not welcome and that the entire nation did not care what we thought about it - this happened to me in Melbourne as the Channel 7 anchor warmed up the Wallaby crowd to hate Brits - what was that all about? I would be mortified if we ever did that to you at HQ.

Your TV in general was very strange - I was very disappointed to see even good old gold wearers like Budda (sic?) and Farr-Jones joining in the general animosity towards the Lions players foolish enough to enter the studio. The newspapers were even worse - reacting rapidly to the slightest comment from the Lions camp whilst hurling insults the other way and then getting upset when the "Poms who can't take a joke" complained. Double standards does come to mind

Austin therefore said, and this is para-phrased, "Don't dish it if you can't take it" and to your media in particular "as you will not apologise for anything don't expect me to". The whole thing then got blown into a massive controversy.

Maybe Austin should have apologised to defuse the situation (though I don't recall Gregan ever apologising for saying he "hates Brits" on TV?), and being Austin he certainly should not have kept stirring the pot as he did - there he messed up big time and as you say gave the Wallabies all the motivation they needed.

Still he will be back there for RWC and I'm sure he'll get a warm and friendly welcome from all of Oz?

Look, there always has to be room for "needle". It adds to the colour and the fun. The Lions got off on the wrong foot - very early on - with some fairly arrogant attitudes. Toss in the First Test result, and the fires were stoked.

I have to say, I find Chris Handey (that's "Buddah") and Simon Poidevin - particularly Poido - very tiresome with their biased observations. When they're concentrating only on the game at hand, they're some of our best commentators. But they - Poido particularly - get carried away. I'm not interested in their bias. What I want is their analysis.

Actually, I recall you mentioning some of our Fox Sports rugby commentators. One of them - Greg Martin, who was the Wallaby full back in the infamous Campo pass incident that cost a try - is, I think, our best rugby commentator. He's clear, concise and has a sense of humour.

Okay basically my assertion here is that your media built him up into a super-villain beyond all proportion to what was actually said? Ultimately though I guess and Aussie and a Pom are never going to agree on this one right?

Face it, old son, he didn't need the media to build him up. He - or his ghost writer - did the job. Naturally his columns were going to be reported here, and obviously the content was going to have an effect. Particularly when it was ongoing. And ongoing.

If you can possibly stand it do read either Healey's or Johnsons' books (in fact Martin doesn't have a bad word to say about Oz or the Wallabies - a small reference to Harrison trying to blag the shirt he had promised Ealesy is all) to understand how Graham's approach differed from that now used by England, Oz and the AB's.

I probably will read Johnson's book. That doco I saw revealed him to be an interesting person. Nothing I saw of Healey convinced me he's anything other than a dill.

The day after the test in Brisbane last year the league *spit* sides for Qland and NSW played there and we saw far more animosity than we ever did twict Lion and Wallaby fans - I'm guessing the Union rivalry is as intense?

You saw the NSW and Queensland RL State of Origin contest. They're intense, even if a lot of the "animosity" is beaten up by the media as a marketing exercise. The RL State of Origin contests have only been going about 25 years. The rugby contests - and genuine animosity - go way, way back. The supreme insult that the Queenslanders still resent is NSW's early 1960s decision not to play them because they (NSW) decided they (Queensland) weren't strong enough to warrant the game.

As Dan Crowley - ex-Wallaby and Queenslander - says: "Queenlanders play for the Queensland jersey; New South Wales play for the Wallaby jersey".

I'll end with my feelings on the matter. I've always thought Queenslanders' lower than average IQ is best explained by their proximity to the tropics.

[Havak]

The Lions got off on the wrong foot - very early on - with some fairly arrogant attitudes. Toss in the First Test result, and the fires were stoked.

To be honest Finbar I simply didn't see this at all myself, and I was looking for it. Can you name any players other than Healey who portrayed this arrogance - I can't think of any.

I wonder again if it wasn't mis-represented by the media a little - the first teams thrown against the Lions were sacrifcial lambs on the part of the ARU, but in all the follow up reaction I saw the Lions kept a level head about that fact.

Buddah - yeah thats right. He was keynote speaker at the dinner I went to before the third test and introduced "highlights of the first test" - and proceeeded to show your cricketers skittling our lame lads out cheaply yet again - went down well in a room full of Rugby fans I can tell you

Poido - oh god is he the "go you good men go" chap who never sees any good play from anyone not wearing the green and gold?

I guess we never will agree on the Healey thing, I just don't read the ongoing part the same way. I would say I agree with the Dill part generally though

I have to say I still think Graham Henry was a more significant part of the Wallabies victory than Austin was, but I don't want to annoy Caligastia too by ripping apart a Blues hero - lets just say I think the Blues must have had superb assistant coaches back then?

Do read Jonno's book, he may look like a two word vocabulary bruiser on the field but that's actually a long way from the truth - smart guy with a superb tactical reading of the game. Lets just say that when he was farmed out to a NZ club (King County?) in our close season as a teenager who had just broken into the first team (to gain more experience) even back then (1989 IIRC) efforts were made to keep him there to gain AB qualification and he was selected for the NZ U-21 tour of Australia based on those few months - that gives you an idea of his quality. I'm very grateful he chose to remain English (though he did marry a Kiwi so any kids will have some choice to make).

State of Origin, thats right. It was all about the return of the prodigal son from England - "Alby". I still can't understand a game where you have to meekly give the ball to the opposition rather than make him win it though.

A final word on the Lions - it was a classic tour you know, Lions dominating the first test, Wallabies the second and the third could have gone either way - Harrison will never make a more important linout win that that I reckon. I still have some reservations - it was totally unfair for the ARU to insist on three tri-nations refs (all Boks and Kiwis), we should have had one French ref to even the playing field. That would certainly have neutered George Smith as I only spotted him on side once or twice all series (and after all it's common knowledge that southern refs ignore offside completely).

On the whole though the Wallabies thoroughly deserved the win and should be proud of it. But next time we will cream you.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak

To be honest Finbar I simply didn't see this at all myself, and I was looking for it. Can you name any players other than Healey who portrayed this arrogance - I can't think of any.

I wonder again if it wasn't mis-represented by the media a little - the first teams thrown against the Lions were sacrifcial lambs on the part of the ARU, but in all the follow up reaction I saw the Lions kept a level head about that fact.

I disagree. There was a palpable arrogance from the outset. Anyway, this could go on forever. We should agree to disagree.

Buddah - yeah thats right. He was keynote speaker at the dinner I went to before the third test and introduced "highlights of the first test" - and proceeeded to show your cricketers skittling our lame lads out cheaply yet again - went down well in a room full of Rugby fans I can tell you

Buddah's a Queenslander. That's a Queenslander's sense of humour for you. Seriously, it was probably meant as a joke.

Poido - oh god is he the "go you good men go" chap who never sees any good play from anyone not wearing the green and gold?

Poido, when he's on form, can be unbiased. He just loses his cool much too quickly. It's Buddah who says: "Go you good thing". To be fair, he applies it to both teams playing.

State of Origin, thats right. It was all about the return of the prodigal son from England - "Alby". I still can't understand a game where you have to meekly give the ball to the opposition rather than make him win it though.

That was "Alfie", as in Alf Langer. As I think I've already documented in these pages, League is a mindless game and should be eradicated from the face of the earth.

A final word on the Lions - it was a classic tour you know, Lions dominating the first test, Wallabies the second and the third could have gone either way - Harrison will never make a more important linout win that that I reckon. I still have some reservations - it was totally unfair for the ARU to insist on three tri-nations refs (all Boks and Kiwis), we should have had one French ref to even the playing field. That would certainly have neutered George Smith as I only spotted him on side once or twice all series (and after all it's common knowledge that southern refs ignore offside completely).

On the whole though the Wallabies thoroughly deserved the win and should be proud of it. But next time we will cream you.

Havak, you're becoming obsessed. You lost. Accept it.

[finbar]

Highlanders 20 -d- Blues 13.

Very scrappy game. The Blues lost it in the first 20 minutes giving away 4 penalties within kicking distance. Pedantic refereeing, perhaps, but the ref had already made his attitude known and the Blues kept ignoring him. The Highlanders seemed to be down a couple of levels on recent performances.

[Havak]

We should agree to disagree

I agree!

Seriously, it was probably meant as a joke

Oh don't worry it was taken as one, it just might have been better received at a Wallabies dinner?

I take the point on Buddah being even on his 'good men'. We have our own Poido here, one Stuart Barnes, whose comments sometimes defy all logic. Rumour has it he likes a bottle of wine or two before commentating. His straight man is Miles Harrison who is very objective and fair.

That was "Alfie", as in Alf Langer. As I think I've already documented in these pages, League is a mindless game and should be eradicated from the face of the earth.

And I guess my less than accurate recall shows how interestedly I follow the 13 man game?

Havak, you're becoming obsessed. You lost. Accept it.

It's true! I hate losing. I should have been born Australian!

Okay with that result am I right in thinking it's now probably between Blues and Brumbies to sneak the last semi-place? I'm learning how it works slowly...

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak

It's true! I hate losing. I should have been born Australian!

We would welcome you with open arms. An intelligent lad such as yourself ... hmmmm ... you'd find the place as boring, conservative and self-absorbed as I do. It's a rathole. Forget it. Stay where you are.

Okay with that result am I right in thinking it's now probably between Blues and Brumbies to sneak the last semi-place? I'm learning how it works slowly...

Well, the Blues are now in trouble. After tonight's game it's:

Crusaders 41 (playing Hurricanes tomorrow)
NSW 38 (playing Reds on Sunday)
Highlanders 33 (having won tonight)
Reds 30 (playing NSW on Sunday)

Blues 28 (having lost tonight)
ACT 28 (playing the Chiefs tomorrow)

So, basically, if the Brumbies win and the Red lose, the Reds drop to 5th and the Brumbies go to 4th. If both Brumbies and Reds lose, it stays as it is. If Brumbies lose and the Reds win, Reds move to 3rd and Brumbies stay where they are.

This is the penultimate round.

[Havak]

I have to be honest, sport banter aside, I really enjoyed my visit to Australia. But of course you just don't see the same country as a tourist that the residents themselves know.

I found Aussies open and friendly on the whole and a refreshing change from here where you sometimes need to go into a pub for a year before a local will even speak to you.

But I will be staying where I am, not so much for the reasons you suggest (though I have no cause to doubt them) but because I can't find my favourite tipple anywhere else but the UK - I am a bitter (ale) drinker you see. You know that drink called VB? I've got bad news for you - it isn't bitter to us, but rather a darkish fizzy lager.

Who do the Blues play in the final round? If it's Reds or ACT there may still be an outside (anorexic) chance?

[Havak]

More of Bob's unique management style on show perhaps, as I see Bowman intends to leave Waratahs after being left out of the reds game?

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak

I found Aussies open and friendly on the whole and a refreshing change from here where you sometimes need to go into a pub for a year before a local will even speak to you.

They are open and friendly and all of that. Just naive, inward-looking and shockingly conservative. And basically racist. That's why we've had the racist, Thatcher-ite government we've had for the last 3 elections.

But I will be staying where I am, not so much for the reasons you suggest (though I have no cause to doubt them) but because I can't find my favourite tipple anywhere else but the UK - I am a bitter (ale) drinker you see. You know that drink called VB? I've got bad news for you - it isn't bitter to us, but rather a darkish fizzy lager.

VB is appalling. The only decent beers here, I think, are some of the small, boutique brews; and Cooper's Sparkling Ale from Adelaide; and a couple of the Tasmanian lagers.

Who do the Blues play in the final round? If it's Reds or ACT there may still be an outside (anorexic) chance?

Fixtures for the final round:

Chiefs v Hurricanes (in Hamilton)

Brumbies v Blues (in Canberra)*

Highlanders v Reds (in Dunedin)*

Crusaders v Waratahs (in Christchurch)

Stormers v Bulls (in Cape Town)

Sharks v Cats (in Durban)

Subject to what happens this weekend, the Brumbies-v-Blues and Highlanders-v-Reds matches could be very, very interesting games.

[MOBIUS]

Well seeing as I watched my old home team (the Hurricanes) literally throw it away Vs. the Waratahs - I guess I'll be supporting my new home team!

Go Waratahs!

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by finbar
VB is appalling. The only decent beers here, I think, are some of the small, boutique brews; and Cooper's Sparkling Ale from Adelaide; and a couple of the Tasmanian lagers.

Yep, i totally agree! VB is the worst aussie beer I ever tasted, I dont have a clue why that swill gets exported to england. I had some beer in Tasmania that was pretty good. Boags I think it was called.

I didnt get to see the game yet, I clicked on this thread realising too late that it would have the score.

Oh well, sounds like it wasnt worth watching anyway.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Caligastia


Yep, i totally agree! VB is the worst aussie beer I ever tasted, I dont have a clue why that swill gets exported to england. I had some beer in Tasmania that was pretty good. Boags I think it was called.

Boags and Cascade are the two nice Tassie drops.

I didnt get to see the game yet, I clicked on this thread realising too late that it would have the score.

Oh well, sounds like it wasnt worth watching anyway.

Sorry! It was pretty dreary. If you don't want to know the result of the Crusaders -v- Hurricanes match look away now!

Crusaders 48 -d- Hurricanes 20

Entertaining game, lots of skills on show. The Crusaders look the goods this season. The complete team. A couple of late tries probably inflated the difference between the teams, but the Hurricanes were never really in it. Lacked the Crusaders' class.

Gotta go now! The Brumbies -v- Chiefs game is about to start!