Should South Africa have racial quotas for rugby?

[finbar]

Originally posted by ravagon


That would have been Justin Ontong?
Actually he struck me as looking like a rather talented player, albeit as you say under a bit too much pressure. He reminded me very much of Ken Rutherford just starting out in his first encounter with the Windies in the Windies. Ended up at the end of the series with a high score of about 60 or so and an average of about 8 IIRC.
I hope he manages to bounce back the way Rutherford did.

Yep. They have some talented young players. The problem was, they were all on a hiding to nothing in that series. Talk about being thrown to the wolves. There's an argument that young players should be tossed in the deep end to sink or swim. If they swim, fine. If they sink, their careers can be blighted forever. And to be picked on the basis of a quota made life even more difficult.

They were, sadly, let down by their experienced players - Gibbes, who hasn't got a clue about discipline; Pollock, who isn't a captain's bootlace and has lost his nip with the ball; Kallis, who seemed to fade mentally as a batsman and who shouldn't be bowling first change; etc.

Ntini OTOH (whose first name completely eludes me) had a pretty successful series overall with the ball. Was he another brand new introduction or had he played in ODI's/Tests before?

Makiah Ntini. He'd had some Test and ODI experience. Very fine prospect, but still very one-dimensional. Lacks any sort of variety and bowls too many boundary balls. Nanti Hayward, who was injured for most of the series in SA, is another young quick with potential. But they both desperately need guidance.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by finbar


Well, that's what they said. It was, at the time, part of a bigger gripe the NZers had about the funding of, apart from other things, the Super 12 competition. They wanted a better deal in relation to the TV rights. Which was the main reason why NZ denied the Australians an extra Super 12 team. Somehow, NZ allowed the fiscal argument to bleed across into the World Cup debate.

Cal, it was never a case that there would be NO ADVERTISING allowed at the grounds. The point was, the World Cup has its sponsors who would be advertising - which is to say, in temporary place of the existing advertisers. In fact, what the NZ administrators stood to lose from the temporary disappearance of the existing advertising would, obviously, have been made up for by the massive income the World Cup would have generated in other ways. The NZ administrators DID try to argue that it would cost them the existing advertising revenue, but the argument was always fallacious.

I can only think that the NZ administrators were trying to call the World Cup's bluff. If they weren't - if there was no strategy behind their thinking - then they're even bigger idiots than I thought.

Sounds about right to me. Its unfortunate that it had to happen this way. I think it would have been good for NZ to be included in the RWC. Sounds like the bickering was over piddly bullsh*t. Its a shame they overlooked the huge positives that would have come out of it (tourism etc).

[MrWhereItsAt]

GRRRR!! If the bloody Super 12 wasn't on the NZRFU would have hell to pay - just wait until the World Cup is actually on and the fans here get upset - they will pay for their blinding idiocy!

[finbar]

What's more, apparently, NZ's very last minute, high pressure lobbying of the IRB - Helen Clarke even got involved - ended up working against them. The English and some of the European Unions, initially sympathetic, were p***ed off.

I'm sure, come World Cup time, the NZ fans will be apoplectic. I suspect, though, that the NZRFU will simply blame Australia, painting it as a payback for NZ's denial of a fourth Super 12 team. The reality is that, while it has been sweet revenge, Australia simply made a common sense business decision. As anyone in their right mind would.

[Caligastia]

How silly of New Zealanders not to be born in Australia. Serves them right!

[finbar]

How astute of one of them to escape to the second greatest city on Earth.

[Havak]

Hmmm - can't agree with that Finbar. The attitude in England is very must that the exclusion of NZ as co-hosts is a disaster for the tournament. Very much a "hand the Aussies the trophy now" situation as we all know your Union will engineer every trick in the book to make you win. I hope that this time at least you have to play a top four side in the final.

[MrWhereItsAt]

I have to agree with you there for the most part, finbar. Oz certainly ain't perfect but as far as this matter is concerned they played it straight and smart - NZRFU will be going down.

And Clark seems to be very Kiwi in her Prime Ministerial duties - any little thing she can do for sports, NZ arts/movies or tourism she can and will - it certainly has ppl considering her a real person sort of PM.

Europe should realize just how crucial co-hosting would have been to NZ's self-esteem - imagine if England got to host the Football World Cup and Ireland/Scotland/Wales didn't get a look in. There'd be riots, Blair would resign and the UK would no longer exist.

And if NY is the SECOND greatest city, what's the greatest?

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
Hmmm - can't agree with that Finbar. The attitude in England is very must that the exclusion of NZ as co-hosts is a disaster for the tournament. Very much a "hand the Aussies the trophy now" situation as we all know your Union will engineer every trick in the book to make you win. I hope that this time at least you have to play a top four side in the final.

Hey Havak! Long time no rugby prattle! I was hoping you'd sniff out the rugby thread and make an appearance. I'm back from seven or eight months solid 7-days-a-week work.

Anyway - I knew what your attitude would be , but I wonder what the attitude of your Union was. I wonder which way they voted. Certainly the Poms and some of the European Unions were known to be sympathetic to the Kiwis, but my mail was that it didn't flow through to the vote.

As to the final - well, I hope you're good enough to make it to the final this time!

BTW, did you hear that Bob Dwyer - fresh from taking the NSW Waratahs to a victory over the Brumbies, handing them their third straight loss - publicly slagged off Georgie Gregan? Called him arrogant? Said his backchatting the ref was costing his team? Tee-hee, master of the psychological gameplay, our Bob.

I also heard that Timmy Horan broke his arm!

Gee, I've missed our mature, unbiased examinations of international rugby in general and your acceptance of Martin Johnson as a mindless thug in particular.

[finbar]

Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt

And Clark seems to be very Kiwi in her Prime Ministerial duties - any little thing she can do for sports, NZ arts/movies or tourism she can and will - it certainly has ppl considering her a real person sort of PM.

You should try our PM. Sports mad little Thatcherite twerp. Sadly, no interest in the arts at all. Speaking of Ms Clark - what was that I read about her marriage of convenience?

And if NY is the SECOND greatest city, what's the greatest?

Mmmm. I was waiting for Caligastia to ask that question. I'll give you a clue. It's in Italy.

[MrWhereItsAt]

It must be for the Italian honeys...

What would be so great about it?

And I think I'll give your PM a miss, thanks. << Shudder >>

Marriage of convenience? I wouldn't know. The last thing I heard about her was her signing paintings that others had drawn - and then said paintings going for thousands at auction.

[Havak]

Typical I guess - I sniffed out the rugger thread only to have work blow up and stop me coming back to it anytime soon.

Yeah the RFU and the rugby public aren't normally in agreement these days - all sorts of weird stuff going on here with a new disciplinary procedure in place to 'eliminate foul play' which so far has effectively meant 'ban Martin Johnson for a month' but had other players throwing punches being totally ignored.

Nice to see Duncan 'fists of fury' McCrae becoming so Influential in the waratahs revival btw - O'Gara still speaks fondly of him I hear.

England make a final is one thing, and good enough they are on their day, but to maike a final in Australia - thats a bit beyond them I feel - it's not been a happy hunting ground for them it has to be said. They are getting better though, honest.

Nobody throws psych bombs like Bob Dwyer - of course with Gregan he may have been beeing totally earnest - they guy doesn't seem worthy of the legacy of Wallaby captain?

btw What has happened to George Smith - when you came here in November Waugh got picked over him I think - now Waugh is a gritty physical player but he doesn't whip opposition ball like Smithy? Oh yeah - and Harrison looked a shadow of the player that stole ball from the 'thug' and in so doing probably beat the Lions.

Yeah Horan has had an Op on his arm - to be honest he is wasting his time at that club (Saracens). He ought to come to Tigers really.

Jonno is many things - but mindless is probably not one of them.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by finbar
How astute of one of them to escape to the second greatest city on Earth.

I think you may be confused. Im still in New York, I havent escaped it yet! New York is the modern day Rome.

[finbar]

Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt
It must be for the Italian honeys...

Nuh. Well, not necessarily. C'mon, you didn't even hazard a guess as to which city ...

And I think I'll give your PM a miss, thanks. << Shudder >>

If only we could. Imagine Margaret Thatcher at 158cm in a grey suit, balding, with moral and cultural sensibilities firmly rooted in 1953 ... bleah!

Marriage of convenience? I wouldn't know. The last thing I heard about her was her signing paintings that others had drawn - and then said paintings going for thousands at auction.

There was some reference a couple of months ago to her marriage. That it was some kind of sham. Oh well. Anyway, yes, she is fond of completely misunderstanding the meaning of celebrity art auctions. Gee, she can sure screw up.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
Typical I guess - I sniffed out the rugger thread only to have work blow up and stop me coming back to it anytime soon.

Can't work be a pain in the butt? Always getting in the way of more important pursuits?

Nice to see Duncan 'fists of fury' McCrae becoming so Influential in the waratahs revival btw - O'Gara still speaks fondly of him I hear.

That explosion of Duncan's was quite mindboggling. These days, finally, he's showing the ability a lot of people - including him! - always knew he had. After the previous two Waratah administrations wouldn't even give him a try. In fact, he's been instrumental in the Waratahs consistency this year. Very talented player.

England make a final is one thing, and good enough they are on their day, but to maike a final in Australia - thats a bit beyond them I feel - it's not been a happy hunting ground for them it has to be said. They are getting better though, honest.

Actually, I think it's going to be a great World Cup. The Wallabies are going to have to lift their game from their most recent efforts, but this Super 12 season has tossed up some very interesting fresh local talent. I suspect that, barring accidents, England will be in there for a very long time.

One person to watch out for is the Waratahs No 8, David Lyons. He toured last year, but he's now really maturing. He's about 21, 6'4", about 17 stone, but incredibly mobile with terrific skills.

Nobody throws psych bombs like Bob Dwyer - of course with Gregan he may have been beeing totally earnest - they guy doesn't seem worthy of the legacy of Wallaby captain?

In terms of talent, he does. But he is arrogant. It's part and parcel of the whole Brumbies outlook which I've mentioned several times before. The thing is, it's one thing to be arrogant when you're winning; it's obviously another when you're losing. Methinks you need a lot more to draw upon than arrogance when you're trying to resurrect a team. And the more pressure the Brumbies have been under, the worse George has reacted. Which is telling. Regardless, he's still a very inspiring player.

And the Waratahs consistency this year - their strength, discipline, commitment and strategies - really is a testament to Bob Dwyer as a coach. They mightn't go all the way, but he has turned a team of pretenders into something very good.

btw What has happened to George Smith - when you came here in November Waugh got picked over him I think - now Waugh is a gritty physical player but he doesn't whip opposition ball like Smithy? Oh yeah - and Harrison looked a shadow of the player that stole ball from the 'thug' and in so doing probably beat the Lions.

George Smith has suffered a couple of problems. The Brumbies have been forced onto the back foot lately. He's been spending a lot more time worrying about defence with less opportunity to do what he does really well - score at the breakdown. His other problem has been the refs' interpretations at the breakdown. Not that there was any problem with what he was doing; most breakdowns now seem to end up with penalties for the most obscure, arcane reasons. For that matter, Waugh has suffered the same way this season.

Justin Harrison has suffered along with the rest of the Brumbies. Steve Larkham, who has barely been sighted this season, most of all. They're now, suddenly, all on the back foot, having to play a style of game that's foreign to them relative to the last few years. This year is a big test for the Brumbies. They've lost a number of key players from last season for various reasons. They miss Jim Williams - No 8 - badly. Maybe they'll turn it around. There's still plenty of talent there - it really boils down to character.

[quoteJonno is many things - but mindless is probably not one of them. [/QUOTE]

Late one night on one of the cable sports channels, I caught the doco they made about the Lions tour here. It was a 2- or 3-parter. Behind the scenes with the Lions for the whole tour. Fascinating stuff, with none of the language censored. Have you seen it? Jonno did, actually, come across as an interesting chap.