Which Civilization has been the biggest bunch of bastards throughout history?

[KrazyHorse]

I can feel the bile rising again...

[Imran Siddiqui]

Then let it rise.

The idea that civilians have been protected/not targetted in wars is a laughable notion.

[DinoDoc]

I can sympathize, KH. Imran seems to be a devoted to the disproven ideas of Karl von Clausewitz and others of his ilk.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Then let it rise.

The idea that civilians have been protected/not targetted in wars is a laughable notion.

The idea that other people having done it makes it right is even more so.

[Imran Siddiqui]

I support the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, even though it was obvious terrorism.

Cut the sanctimonius bull**** and live in this world!

[Chris 62]

A few matters...

First off, a number of people here need a reading comprehension lesson, I was following the thread title all along, and never deviated from that.

Islam does have a rotten history, but then, so does everybody else.
The problem lies in the PC crowd that jumped up when I said Islam was my choice.
Instead of making claim to someone else through example and history, they chose to instead bombard me with what was good about Islam, and when shown all was not rosey, chose the first option of the ignorant, calling me a bigot.

Imran is the perfect example.
He never asked me what my opinion on the ME really is, because I rarely give it, as the PC crowd here spends all it's time bashing Israel, it's impossible to be a moderate.
Go ahead and put me on ignore boy, your posts of late richly deserve that.
But I still believe in you, for you have intelligence, and I can believe you can be salveged, and stop the nonsense.
The Pals tried a war of genocide in 48 and lost, defing the UN, and the arab world has continued this for years.
Don't take my word for it, look it up, UN Partition Resolution of 29 November 1947.
The Pals deserve a homeland, but they lost any "rights" when they tried to kill their neibhors, anything they get will be at Israel's sufference, and they will get nothing via terror bombing.
Oh, and the pals have no leagal right to the WB, they rejected the UN partion, and ceded the place to Jordan, who gave it up to Israel.
Lefty and I discussed this just recently (he's a lawyer, in case some don't know), and he agrees that the leagality of the area is murky at best, but YOUR claims, Imran, that it belongs to the Pals is just bull, that's the attitude that has led to 50+ years of war, an inability to compromise.

Serb, the next right thing you say about me will be the first, I happen to think that a USA-Russian alliance would be a fantastic union, and a historical one as well, as there was a time when the USA and Russia were good friends and allies.
Can you name that time?
Hint: It's NOT WWII
I didn't hate the Soviet people, and in fact, highly respected them, as they did us, something a civilan like yourself could hardly understand.
The Soviet system was trash, stiffiling and no good, and your own peolpe see that now.
You lack objectivity, it's always east vs west with you, thus you get trolled for being foolish.
The perfect example was your arrogant post about the great Yuri Gagarin, you soiled his memory and acchivment by saying that the west neithers knows nor cares about him, an insult that prevented me from posting about him in your thread.
Most in the west couldn't name the first American in space, or the date of the first Moon landing, what makes you think they would recall the first man in space?

Che, you know me well, I can show you the many beautiful and glorius achivements of islam, but i also recognize that it is mired in backwardness, it's own best scholars are saying so, and have been for years.
To deny it is to be a fool, as a number of you were in this thread.
It also has a bloody and violent history, and to of history's worst boondoggles, the Balkans and the ME can both be layed squarly at Islam's door.

Sikander, I post that way when I get assinine answers from whom I'm talking to, it is called contempt for the stupid, which i have no time for.

Krazy, you liddle puddytat, your population totals are wildly exaggerated, I don't know why you continue to insist on them.
Tenochcilan may have supported 100,000 at it's hieght, and the other Mezo-Americans cultures may have hade larger population centers in the past, but NOT in 1492.
The Aztecs simply could not feed such a population, and no such large population centers are seen above the Rio Grande, they simply don't exsist.
I'll go with the numbers I was taught till some concrete proof of more is presented, and those numbers are approx 1 million in NA (all tribes), approx 4 million in central/south America, of which large numbers, maybe as much as 90% were decimated by diseases brought to the new world from the old.

IM, yes, I was trolling some of them a bit, they need the arrogance knocked from them from time to time, and get off this kick of everything is the white man's fault.
All the races of man are responcible for the modern world, not any one group, white or otherwise.

Comrade X, you inane commie act makes you a target of scorn to most of us, some find it amusing, in actuality you are pedantic.

Sloww and Patikis, you can make a solid argument vs Greece, the Hellens were totally against the cultrues of the east that Alexander took.

Dino, you can make an argument for Rome, but the greatest honor a barbarian could have was to be a citizen of Rome, so it's hard to view them as worst.
Also, you displayed some of that PC, best guard against it, a man is measured by the stand he takes, bend to please the crowd you only lower yourself.

Spray, Cal and Lefty, (and Che as well) my thanks for the words of sanity, the #1 problem with this kind of thread is the Political correctness that quickly manifests itself.
The example is obvious, I said I think Islam is worst, instead of a comment such as "no, I think your wrong, these people are worse because..." I got a list of Islam's accomplishments (as if that mitigates anything), and then a barrage of "You are a bigot!"

The first refuge of a fool is not to refute with fact, but to personal attack, I just happen to have a mean streak, I enjoy answering in kind.
If your waiting for me to be PC and avoid trying to hurt some group's feelings, you have an eternal wait.
The vets here have seen me post many times the evils and flaws of the USA and the West in general, but the lack of objectivity in most of you sickens me, and I'll continue to laugh at you and spit in your face when you post ignorance in place of fact, half-cocked notions in place of history, and opinion in place of reality.
All of that has no place in the historian's world, be objective or go talk politics or sports, because you have no place in history.

[Ethelred]

Originally posted by Serb

Then in this case your choice will be just an emotional choice, nothing more.

Nonsense. There is no need for EXACT numbers. EMPHASIS on EXACT. Does the concept of estimates escape you?

Every Russian tzar was a despot and a living God at the same time for his people.

That, along with the slaughtering, is why I voted for Russia.

I hope you guys learn sometime that its possible to have a leader without having a paternal despot.

[KrazyHorse]

Krazy, you liddle puddytat, your population totals are wildly exaggerated, I don't know why you continue to insist on them.
Tenochcilan may have supported 100,000 at it's hieght, and the other Mezo-Americans cultures may have hade larger population centers in the past, but NOT in 1492.
The Aztecs simply could not feed such a population, and no such large population centers are seen above the Rio Grande, they simply don't exsist.
I'll go with the numbers I was taught till some concrete proof of more is presented, and those numbers are approx 1 million in NA (all tribes), approx 4 million in central/south America, of which large numbers, maybe as much as 90% were decimated by diseases brought to the new world from the old

Please provide links/sources, as I was kind enough to do (and honest enough to provide all that I read, BTW. I did not pick and choose).

Ahem. I forgot the mandatory insult. Chrissypoo, you little right-wing revisionist, it's very cute of you to attempt to whitewash the Christian genocides in the New World.

[Imran Siddiqui]

First off, a number of people here need a reading comprehension lesson, I was following the thread title all along, and never deviated from that.

Everything bastardish that Islam did, the Christians did bigger and better (or at least similar). That seems to go over your head.

The whole idea of who is the biggest bastards is basically good subtracted by bad. Basically, saying that Islam is obviously the biggest bastards, mean they've done nothing good... and many people (including Che, who you praised) took you to mean that.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
I support the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, even though it was obvious terrorism.

Cut the sanctimonius bull**** and live in this world!

*sigh*

Those family members kept killing my family members, so I shot their baby.

Good job. Thanks, but I'll stay in this "ivory tower" if the alternative is to wallow in the mud like you are.

[Chris 62]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
Please provide links/sources, as I was kind enough to do (and honest enough to provide all that I read, BTW. I did not pick and choose).

I'm not saying your dishonest, I looked for a link to provide, but I couldn't provide one.
Tomorrow I'll provide some source material if you like, it's a bit late now, and I have yet to post at the fun place.

Ahem. I forgot the mandatory insult. Chrissypoo, you little right-wing revisionist, it's very cute of you to attempt to whitewash the Christian genocides in the New World.

It lacks something, best work on it.

Imran

Everything bastardish that Islam did, the Christians did bigger and better (or at least similar). That seems to go over your head.

There go the excuses again.
There comes a time when the world changes, you understand Islamic law, what are the rights of women?
They make up three fifths of the world, yet in Islam they have less then one quarter of the rights.
Name one Christian state since 1700 that forces it's citizens to pray.
Islam does, it's a crime for a Muslim not to.
Any thinking person can see this, why do you deny that the loss of basic human freedoms far outstrips any attrocity or war?

The whole idea of who is the biggest bastards is basically good subtracted by bad. Basically, saying that Islam is obviously the biggest bastards, mean they've done nothing good... and many people (including Che, who you praised) took you to mean that.

People need a brain transplant, and it's not a matter of plus/minus, the world doesn't work that way, and you know it.

[Drake Tungsten]

Re: A few matters...

Originally posted by Chris 62
but the lack of objectivity in most of you sickens me, and I'll continue to laugh at you and spit in your face when you post ignorance in place of fact, half-cocked notions in place of history, and opinion in place of reality.
All of that has no place in the historian's world, be objective or go talk politics or sports, because you have no place in history.

Amen to that.

[Imran Siddiqui]

There comes a time when the world changes, you understand Islamic law, what are the rights of women?

Women, in the law laid down by Muhammed, had many more rights than any Christian state until 1700. They could own land, divorce, etc. Women are considered equal to men in every way in the words of Muhammed.

edit: Btw, Iraq before the Gulf War (and still might), had basically the same laws for men and women in the country, and last I checked it was a country with majority Muslim.

Islam does, it's a crime for a Muslim not to.

And it's a crime for people to perform sodomy in Georgia. When are people arrested for violating these laws?

The Bible says slaves should respect their masters. Is that a statement you agree with?

why do you deny that the loss of basic human freedoms far outstrips any attrocity or war?

For a longer time that 300 years, Islam's people had the most human freedoms than any other civilization on the Earth.

and it's not a matter of plus/minus, the world doesn't work that way

That's news to me.

Let's see, the German people are the greatest bastards for the Holocaust. Well what about the cultural & scientific achievements? Bach, Einstein, etc... hmm, the German people aren't such bastards after all.

Good parts have to balance the bad parts if you are saying who are the biggest bastards. That IS how it works!

[DinoDoc]

Re: A few matters...

Originally posted by Chris 62
Dino, you can make an argument for Rome,

My vote was based on the fact that they confirmed and legitimized brutal warfare against civilian populations charcterized by thier astounding savage, gratuitous tactics.

but the greatest honor a barbarian could have was to be a citizen of Rome, so it's hard to view them as worst.

Arminimus and the German tribes didn't think so.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Chris 62
Serb, the next right thing you say about me will be the first, I happen to think that a USA-Russian alliance would be a fantastic union,

You may not beleive me, but I have absolutely the same thoughts when Gorbachev has come to power and perestroika began. But later I realized that will never be a freinds. We are very different people.

and a historical one as well, as there was a time when the USA and Russia were good friends and allies.
Can you name that time?
Hint: It's NOT WWII

Let me guess? In Korea? No. In Vietnam? No. May be in Afghanistan? No.
Oh may be you talking about beginning of 20 century or about the time when we sold Alaska to you?

The Soviet system was trash, stiffiling and no good, and your own peolpe see that now.

I never said that Soviet system was exelent.

The perfect example was your arrogant post about the great Yuri Gagarin,

I was already drunk when I started it (yah we was celabrating this date with my buddies, so what, we are alcoholics now?), later I regred about it.

Most in the west couldn't name the first American in space, or the date of the first Moon landing, what makes you think they would recall the first man in space?

First American spacemen- Alan Shepard, right? As for date of Moon landing you catch me there, just remember it was in 1969.