Which Civilization has been the biggest bunch of bastards throughout history?

[SlowwHand]

What about General Tecumseh Sherman? The bastard!

[Chris 62]

If you break it down by petty kings and Emirs, it only gets worse.

The Ottomans are the only ones worth talking about after the 15th century, the otehr states had lond since fallen to decadence.

An interesting example is the Barbary pirates, an organized extortion ring run out of Islamic North Africa (and having nothing to do with the Ottomans) that wasn't broken untill the 1820s.
These sturdy fellows would way lay merchant ships plying the Mediteranian, unless you payed their leader extortion money (and from this comes one of the famous American quotes, when US merchant seamen were siezed, they were held under threat of death till blood money was delivered, thus we get the quote "Millions for defense, not one cent for tribute", maening the young US would rather fight then pay).

Another interseting notion is that all the people benifitted from Islamic science and culture, when in fact, then as now, only a cultural elite, of royal blood enjoyed such benifits.
The average person lived then as now, in abject poverty.

There are so many examples.

Yet I continue to see how they invented the decimal system and saved greek poems, so it's OK.

[Chris 62]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
What about General Tecumseh Sherman? The bastard!

Georgia was an eyesore, he did the South a favor.

[MrBaggins]

I'd just like to point out that Muhammed was in fact a mysogynistic bastard when it came to women, whether it be the preponderence of what he said or did (he said a few nice things about womens relationship with society, but they were few and far between)

Among his 23 (i believe) marriages he married for money (even though he said not to do that,) and after the rich wife died, he married a 6 year old, who he said was his 'favorite'.

He also was big on inequality (two women are the measure of a man, as a result of low intellect) and wife beating, to name just two big concepts.

[SlowwHand]

Originally posted by Chris 62
Georgia was an eyesore, he did the South a favor.

HEY!
He kept his nappy ass out of Texas, though.


No one talks of Idi Amin any more. AKA Mr. Chompers.
He had a pretty disgusting group of people.

[ZoboZeWarrior]

Originally posted by MrBaggins
I'd just like to point out that Muhammed was in fact a mysogynistic bastard when it came to women, whether it be the preponderence of what he said or did (he said a few nice things about womens relationship with society, but they were few and far between)

Among his 23 (i believe) marriages he married for money (even though he said not to do that,) and after the rich wife died, he married a 6 year old, who he said was his 'favorite'.

He also was big on inequality (two women are the measure of a man, as a result of low intellect) and wife beating, to name just two big concepts.

What r your reference ?

His first wife was Khadija... A skilled businesswomen.
Sure If you read the Coran, the point of view is phalocratic, as all religious text at this time and before.

But in the Coran, you could found the most protective law for women ! Read It.

---

http://www.magna.com.au/~prfbrown/islam_4.html

When Khadija died, he married a very elderly lady, Sauda, whose only recommendation for the honour was that she was the widow of a faithful companion of his who had to flee to Abyssinia from the persecution of the Quraish. The main part of his life, from twenty-five to fifty-four, was thus an example for his followers that monogamy was the rule in married life.

Now comes the third period. Of all his wives A'isha was the only one whom he married as a virgin. Her father, Abu Bakr, the closest frined of the Prophet had offered her to him when he suffered the great vereavement of losing both his wife and his uncle Abu Talib. The girl was one possessing exceptional qualities, and both Abu Bakr and the Prophet saw in her the great woman of the future who was best suited to perform the duties of the wife of a teacher who was to be a perfect exemplar for mankind. So the Prophet accepted her; but apparently she had not yet reached the age of puberty, and her marriage was consummated towards the close of the second year of the Flight.

[DaShi]

Originally posted by Chris 62
Islam is the answer.

For almost 1400 years they have been constant aggressors and bald faced conqerors, and to this day can't get along with anyone who isn't Muslim.

No other culture spends more time and effort on racial hatred and training then Islamic states.

A history of misery, oppression and conquest.

10

[MrBaggins]

The koran

Mu's wives

1- Khadija
2- Sawda
3-Ayesha
4-Omm Salama
5-Hafsa
6-Zainab (of Jahsh)
7-Juwariya
8-Omm Habiba
9-Safia
10-Maymuna (of Hareth)
11-Fatima
12-Hend
13-Asma (of Saba)
14-Zainab (of Khozayma)
15-Habla
16-Asma (of Noman)
17-Maria
18-Rayhana
19-Omm Sharik
20-Maymuna (not of Hareth)
21-Zainab (third one)
22-Khawla
23-Duba

Holy sh*t!

Quote by a guy called Ezra in a post I saved from a religious forum

(Sura 33:28) "O Prophet! Say to thy consorts: 'If it be that ye desire the life of this world and its glitter then come! I will provide for your enjoyment and set you free in a handsome manner.'

(Sura 33:30) "O Consorts of the Prophet if any of you were guilty of evident unseemly conduct, the punishment would be doubled to her, and that is easy for Allah."


The prophet's interactions with women, his insatiable lust for lascivious ladies, his lecherous behaviour with his wives and concubines are components that form the model of a true muslim. The prophet is the perfect muslim man for all devout muslims as he is the one whom Allah chose to reveal the Quran to. And because he is the perfect man it is every muslim's duty to follow him. For example, they cannot eat pork because Mohammed disliked it, they have to grow a beard like he had, they have to loot and kill like he did and likewise they have to molest and treat women inhumanly as he did!

The "great" Mohammed, the founder of this "fabulous" faith was married to Khadija Bibi who was his employer and 15 years his senior. At that time Mohammed was 25 years old. He was Khadija Bibi's 3rd husband. Khadija Bibi was a rich widow when she married Mohammed. For the first time in his life, Mohammed enjoyed a luxurious life.

This shows the parasitic nature of Mohammed who married his employer so that he can live a rich life without putting in a single day's work.


Khadija Bibi died when Mohammed was 49 years old. Between the ages of 49 and 63 the "great prophet" married at least 11 times.

This shows how he treated the institution of marriage. For him, women were nothing but objects for sexual fulfillment. Marrying at least 11 women in 14 years throws light on his insatiable sexual appetite. Read on about the "greatness" of this prophet.


Among his many other wives Mohammed also married a 6 year old baby, Ayesha. She was his favourite wife.

This marriage is a clear proof that his pedophilic tendency started manifesting itself after Khadija's death, because when she was alive he did not want to offend her because all the wealth belonged to her.


The prophet said that, "the woman can be married for religion, her fortune, or her beauty. So marry one for the religion" (Abu Issa al-Tarmidi, Sunan al- Tarmidi, Medina n.d., p.275, B: 4, H:1092)

Therefore, according to the Prophet the woman is either a creature who will be subjected to brutal conversion to Islam, a golden goose or a sexual plaything. Her virtues, intelligence or personality do not matter. But Mohammed did not stop there. He recommends all muslims to marry "one for the religion". Now what does this mean ? It means that use the institution of marriage to convert people to Islam. Now you know why so many Muslim men marry non-muslims and convert them to Islam. It also shows what high regard Islam has for the sacred institution of Marriage.


In many occasions Mohammed did not even spare women who were originally allotted to other soldiers of his tribe after gaining a victory in War. One such woman was Safia Bint Huyay. This Jewish woman was captured by lecherous muslim invaders after the Jews were brutally murdered by Mohammed. According to a Quranic Sura (8:41) four fifths of any booty or spoil that is won after murdering the non-believers, is distributed to the barbaric invaders. In Islam, women of other religion are also considered as booty, so Safiya bint Huyay was allotted to a soldier called Dahia. But when Mohammed the ascetic heard of her 'incomparable beauty', he sent for Dahiya, paid him Safiya's price and married her. (Ibn Saad, al-Tabaqat, pp. 120-123).


Safiya Bint Huyway was just one of the numerous Jewish women who became prey to Mohammed's insatiable sexual desire. Regardless of his participation in these barbaric raids Mohammed was alloted 1/5 of the booty as prescribed in the Quran, Sura 8:41. Rayhana Bint Zayd was another Jewish woman, whom Mohammed captured after her tribe was totally butchered. She was known to be a woman of immense beauty. Mohammed kept her as a concubine. (Ibid., p. 129)

During Mohammed's time a lot of barbaric wars were instigated by the muslims and Mohammed was always the receiver of at least one fifths of the booty. This booty included captured women and children. One can imagine how many women were made into concubines for Prophet Mohammed's carnal pleasure and how many children were his victims.


Maria the Copt from Egypt, was another concubine of Mohammed. She bore him a son, Ibrahim, who died in infancy. The Prophet's desire for Maria was so strong that it led him to violate another of his ideals: "That a man should be just in his dealings with his wives. A man should keep strictly to the rotation schedule and not have intercourse with a wife, even if he so desired."

Hafsa, one of the Prophet's wives, however, caught him having intercourse with Maria in Safiya's room. 'O Prophet of God, in my room and in my day!' fulminated Safiya angrily. Afraid of the anger of his other wives, and especially of his most beloved Ayesha, he promised Hafsa never to touch Maria again if she would keep the incident secret (Ibid., p. 213). But she spoke out, and the Prophet immediately received orders from God to retract his promise to Safiya; he then resumed relations with Maria (Sura 66:3).

Maria's power over the Prophet is best described in Ayesha's words: "I never was as jealous as I was of Maria again. That is because she was a very beautiful, curly haired woman. The Prophet was very attracted to her. In the beginning, she was living near us and the Prophet spent entire days and nights with her until we protested and she became frightened." (Ibn Saad, al-Tabaqat, p. 212)

The Prophet then decided to transfer Maria to a more secure dwelling far from his legitimate wives and kept seeing her inspite of their pressure.


Another woman that the Prophet married for satisfying his sexual desires was Juwariya Bint al-Harith who was according to Ayesha's description, 'so beautiful that whoever caught a glimpse of her fell in love with her.' (Ibid. p.117)
Ayesha's jealousy is displayed again from the following quote: "The Prophet was in my room when Juwariya came to ask him about a contract. By Allah, I hated her when I saw her coming towards him. I knew that he was going to see what I saw (her beauty)." (Ibid)


A unique instance of the effect of female beauty on the Prophet was that of Duba Bint Amr who 'was among the most beautiful of Arab women....her hair was long enough to cover all her body.'(Ibid., p. 153) Mohammed asked her son if he could marry his mother, but later retracted when he heard that Duba Bint Amr, although attractive, was aging.

This shows that Mohammed was only interested in physical beauty and not in providing protection for widows or some other charitable cuase as the Muslims have been brain washed to believe.


Mohammed's adopted son Zayed was married to Zainab, daughter of Jahsh. But one day the prophet "beheld in a loose undress, the beauty of Zainab, and burst forth into an ejaculation of devotion and desire. The servile, or greatful, freeman (Zayed) understood the hint and yielded without hesitation to the love of the benefactor."

Mohammed was not satisfied with his own overflowing harem and had to marry his son's wife. His son being a devoted follower of the "great" prophet was more than happy to divorce his wife. What a great father-in-law Mohammed was, a model for all Islamic father-in-laws.

[MrBaggins]

some more proof of classy behavior by good old Mu or Mo

Again, by Ezra
(Al-Hadis, Vol. 3, p. 137) Abu Sayeed al-Khodri reported that Mohammed was talking to a group of women when he said, "... I see the majority of you will go to Hell." The women asked why, to which Mohammed responded, "You often curse and are ungrateful to your companions." He then told them they had a basic defect in their nature, to which they responded, "How?" Mohammed answered, "Is not the attestation (knowledge and witness) of a women only worth half of a man's? And that is on account of her short intelligence."


This quote really brings out Mohammed's "shining" views on women. He automatically condemns the majority of them to hell. According to him a woman's intellectual capacity is only half that of a man and that is why two women are required as witnesses as compared to one man.

He was so scared of women's intelligence that he said, "a man should not walk between two women" (Al Hadis, Vol. 1, p. 586) as that would mean that the man was taking a risk of being on equal turf according to Mohammed.



(Al Hadis, Vol. 2, p. 692) Ibn Ma`sud reported from the Messenger of Allah who said, "A woman is like a private part (sex organ). When she goes out (walking) the devil casts a glance at her (in lust)."

Well, this clearly gives us an insight into Mohammed's "pure" mind. To him women were nothing but walking vaginas to be used as objects for sexual fulfillment. No wonder he required women to be completely covered from head to toe. He had to have some way to control his lust!



(Koran, 4:34) ...Guard in (the husband's)absence what Allah would have them guard...


This verse is demanding that the women should guard their private parts for the sake of their husbands. Again, this tells us the low opinion that Mohammed held for women-- objects to be used for sexual fulfillment. Nowhere in the Koran or the Hadiths does it say that a man should guard his private parts or abstain from sex in the absence of their wives. A man can even engage in sexual intercourse with young boys/men without much rebuke from Allah. This is supported by the verses stated below:

(Koran 4:15) If two men among you commit indecency (sodomy) punish them both. If they repent and mend their ways, let them be. Allah is forgiving and merciful.


(Koran 4:16) If any one of your women is guilty of lewdness ...confine them until death claims them.


As you can see, for women any sort of sexual exploration is punishable by death. Whereas for a man, any form of perversion is pardoned by the all merciful Allah. Such fairness can only be found in the "holiest of the holiest books", the Koran.

(Koran 4:34) ...As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them, refuse to share their beds and BEAT THEM...

Mohammed was an old perverted nutcase. He was so insecure about himself that he thought that showing physical prowess over women would serve as a reminder to him of his manliness. Thus, he encouraged wife beating! In Islam equality between a man and a woman is a far cry. A man needs only to be suspicious to justify the bestial act of beating his wife.



(Al Hadis, Vol. 1, p. 215) Omar reported from the Holy Prophet who said, "No man shall be questioned for beating his wife."


In the very next Hadith a woman complained to Mohammed that her husband beat her while she prayed. Mohammed told her to change her time of prayer or pray shorter prayers so that her husband could get on with the joy of beating her. (Reported by Abu Sayeed al-Kodri, Attest by Abu Daud)

Could Mohammed degrade women any further? If you are asking yourself this question then surprisingly you have not yet grasped the true nature of this "great Prophet" . He allowed the utterly inhuman practice of circumcision for females. In this type of circumcision a girl's clitoris is carved away, so that she may never experience climax during sexual intercourse and her vulva is sewn shut until it is cut open at the time of marriage! Such "great" practices can only be sactioned by Islam-- the religion for all women to embrace!


(Al Hadis, Vol. 1, p. 738) Abul Malih reported that the Messenger of Allah said, "Circumcision is Sunnat (required by Islamic law) for males and optional for females."

OK, enough of looking at the negative side of Islam. Now lets look at the positive side of this religion. Mohammed said that a man before marrying a woman has to pay her a dowry. Surely, as the many devout muslims would say, you can't criticize that. Ah, but they are mistaken, then again, that's not anything new. Read the quote below from Al Hadis.


(Al Hadis, Vol. 2, p. 657) Oqbah-b- A`mer reported that the Messenger of Allah said, "The most equitable of the conditions of marriage is that you should fulfil that (dowry) with which you have made private parts lawful."


So, according to Mohammed and his Allah a man has to pay the woman before he can use her private parts. Which means that the man is supposed to treat his wife as a prostitute by paying her before he gets a legal permit for having sex. This implies that the foundation for marriage in Islam is to provide a man with legal sexual gratification and nothing else matters.



Now, hold on! Doesn't Islam say that prostitution is not allowed? Of course, it does! It's right there in Sahih Muslim Hadith:

(Sahih Muslim Hadith Chapter 619) Selling a cat, selling a dog (unless it is a working dog), and earning of prostitutes(unless they are non-muslims),... are all forbidden.


Here we have a contradiction! But, again, that is nothing new for the Koran. It is full of contradictions. But I digress, a separate article will be devoted to this in the coming weeks.

Back to the dowry issue. Mohammed was not a man who would have people speculate on what he has said. He had to specify what he meant by dowry and specify he did in Al Hadis, Vol. 2, p. 659 (57). He said that, "a handful of barley or dates is enough."



Not only are the wives supposed to be treated as prostitutes, but as prostitutes who only deserve "a handful of barley or dates".



Another quote from the Hadith gives total control of women's lives to men.

(Al Hadis, Vol 2, p. 651) Abu Hurairah reported that the Messenger of Allah said, "No woman shall give a woman in marriage, nor shall a woman give herself in marriage. Verily, the fornicatress is she that marries by herself."


Here Mohammed takes away the right of a woman to choose her husband. She has no right to decide how to live her life. This basic right is snatched away from her and given to a man. Furthermore, this implies that a widow has no final authority over her daughter in Islam.

As if men didn't already have the legal freedom to control and degrade women's lives that they were granted further control to degrade women.

During a Jihad expedition (holy war) Mohammed's men came to him very frustrated. As seen in the quote below:

(Al Hadis, Vol. 2, p. 686) Ibn Masud reported, "We were fighting with the Messenger of Allah, and our wives were not with us. We asked the Messenger of Allah, 'Should we castrate ourselves?' The Holy Prophet forbade us from that, and then he allowed us Muta (temporary) marriage. So, we all married wives for a fixed time (usually three days) for the dowry of a piece of cloth."


Here Mohammed clearly tells the muslims to forget about the prostitutes they had purchased for a handful of dates back home and to have fun with these new victims who come even cheaper. They can be bought and violated for only a piece of cloth. Allah is truly merciful! Praise be to Allah!

In other civilized countries this is called rape--plain and simple. The mullahs happily approve this dastardly deed by quoting from the Koran. (Koran, 5:87): "...Make not unlawful the good things Allah hath made lawful for you." Thus this heinous crime is still committed by muslims as attested by the Indo-Pak war, Arab-Israeli war, Iraq- Iran war, Iraq-Kuwait war, etc.

Sometimes Mohammed's lust was so great that he conveniently forgot all the Koranic verses invented by him and did not have time to come up with an ammendment. One instance of this is noted when he married Safiya, a Jewish girl, after killing her father and her betrothed husband. He did not want to go through the long laborious procedure of finding a sponsor, paying the dowry, sending out invitations, or preparing a wedding feast. In fact, Mohammed skipped over the usual law of waiting until her next monthly was passed. He consummated his "marriage" to her on a sand dune with the blood and gore of Jihad still covering him, even Safiya's father's blood, no doubt. This is another case of rape, but for Mohammed it was just a beautiful marriage sanctioned by the All Perverted Allah!

It is sickening to read the Koran and the Hadiths and the low and inhuman opinion that this so called despicable Mohammed has on women.

[Ethelred]

Originally posted by Rogan Josh
So why do you want to kill people?

I don't. Whats that got to do with it?

Have you ever seen a photos of murder victims? Or the real thing. I have only seen the photos myself. There are people that ENJOY causing pain and death. The world doesn't need them. Wanting to kill them has nothing to do with it. Needing to rid the human race of them is what is going on.

I might get a better discussion too. What is your problem? I try and be civil to you, despite you ignoring the bits of my posts you don't like and whining on about other, completely irrelevent, issues. Or are you getting a little tense because you haven't had the chance to kill someone lately? Just itching to pull that lever....?

My problem is that you INVENT my side of the discusion. I haven't ignored anything you have said. That is yet another invention of yours. You seem to gone so irrational on this you feel the need to completely fabricate my position.

If it is not victimless, why would one object to it being illegal? And if it is made illegal, why object to the level of punishment?

Ask the legislatures that have decided not to make it ilegal. Perhaps they have noticed a large percentage of themselves have committed adultery.

Why not object to the level of punishment? You are behaving strangely just thinking that someone might think murderers should be subject to the death penalty.

Now I see where you are coming from....

I doubt it since you keep inventing new things to pretend I said.

What social advantage does this law have? It seems completely religious to me.

I suspect that women like it. Its not religious. Its not in the Bible either. Just because it seems religious to you does not mean it is religious.

So how do you distinguish 'nationalist' fundamentalists like yourself from 'chistian' or 'islamic' fundamentalists? OR do you have no arguements opposing my point and merely wish to divert attention?

Do you still insist on making up my position for me? Or do you just have a reading problem?

Hmmm...this doesn't seem very consistent with:

That is like saying that apples aren't consistent with black holes. Do try to compare things that are related in some small way.

tut tut.

Was a lousy Pharoah.

You seem to be drawn to non-sequitors.

[SlowwHand]

"(Koran 4:15) If two men among you commit indecency (sodomy) punish them both. If they repent and mend their ways, let them be. Allah is forgiving and merciful.


(Koran 4:16) If any one of your women is guilty of lewdness ...confine them until death claims "



hmmm.

[Plan Austral]

-I thought the number of people living in the Americas at the end of the 15th century was close to five million.
Steele

The population in the Americas was close to 12 millions, and half of them were living in the Inca and Aztec empires and their semi-civilized surrounded areas.

[ZoboZeWarrior]

Originally posted by MrBaggins
The koran

Mu's wives

Coran for french

The guy ha only 4 legal wifes. It's why muslims could be married 'only' to 4 wifes...

[MrBaggins]

Over the course of his life, he had 23. I've listed them.

I think that if anyone had 23 wives in modern times, there'd be a picture of him in an encylopedia under the misogynist catagory.

[ZoboZeWarrior]

Yes, maybe. But it was long, long time ago. 4 wifes (not 23) was not enormous.