Communism's Greatest Crimes

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
Massacres in Greece?

The Greeks have brought this up several times on the boards.

And btw, Stalin effectively sold out the communists in Greece, as he agreed with Churchill that Greece would be under British influence, and kept this promise by doing nothing as the communists were crushed.

The crimes of Stalin do not exonerate the crimes of the West. Frankly, it wasn't Stalin's revolution to sell out. The Communists were the one's who had liberated Greece from the Nazis, not the British. The Brits had not right (thought they had the power) to overthrown the Communists and install the old King. Massacre may have been a bit of hyperbole on my part. I meant MASS MURDER! Communist were taken and tortured and murdered. Finally they had to take to the hills, just to stay alive!

As for the stuff about Italy, France, and Germany, the West had already seen the kind of stuff Stalin was getting up to in Eastern Europe, and I think it is perfectly acceptable that they took some action to secure Western Europe against Stalinism.

One, in 1947, Stalin had not replaced the governments in Eastern Europe yet, or all of them at any rate. Two, Communist governments that came to power electorally were unlikely to repeat the crimes of Stalinism. Three, no one outside of the USSR really knew what the hell was going on in the USSR, and probably wouldn't have bleieved it anyway.

Show me a reliable source on that and there's a remote potential I'll believe it.

Quoting Timewatch from the USSR thread:

What do you think Secretary of State Byrnes meant in the U.N. when he told the Soviet ambassador "Get out of Iran or we'll give it to you with both barrells!"

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara

What do you think Secretary of State Byrnes meant in the U.N. when he told the Soviet ambassador "Get out of Iran or we'll give it to you with both barrells!"

Maybe he meant "kegs". Kegs of Budweiser....

[chequita guevara]

You know what, I was wrong. The US did not start the Cold War in 1946.

Britain began it in 1944, by attacking the Communist Greek partisans who had liberated Greece, and restoring the monarchy.

Greece was the first of the liberated states to be openly and forcefully compelled to accept the political system of the occupying power. It was Churchill who acted first and Stalin who followed his example, in Bulgaria and then in Rumania [sic], though with less bloodshed.

D.F. Fleming, The Cold War and its Origins, 1917-1960, (New York, 1961) pp183-5

[Imran Siddiqui]

but ten million is the generally accepted number.

I thought it was more like 12 million, but like it really matters .

[Imran Siddiqui]

Britain began it in 1944, by attacking the Communist Greek partisans who had liberated Greece, and restoring the monarchy.

Can you really consider this the beginning of the Cold War?

I mean, I'd think the beginning is the first diplomatic clash between the US and the USSR... like your Persia example or Stalin not allowing elections in Eastern Europe... something like that.

[chequita guevara]

The quote sort of says it all.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Explain.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
You know what, I was wrong. The US did not start the Cold War in 1946.

Britain began it in 1944, by attacking the Communist Greek partisans who had liberated Greece, and restoring the monarchy.

Greece was the first of the liberated states to be openly and forcefully compelled to accept the political system of the occupying power. It was Churchill who acted first and Stalin who followed his example, in Bulgaria and then in Rumania [sic], though with less bloodshed.

D.F. Fleming, The Cold War and its Origins, 1917-1960, (New York, 1961) pp183-5

This sounds like what the Soviets did to the (much weaker) British backed Polish resistance in the same year.

[chequita guevara]

There was a significant Polish resistence outside the Warsaw ghetto? I thought the Soviets just held back, and let the Nazis do their dirty work.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
There was a significant Polish resistence outside the Warsaw ghetto? I thought the Soviets just held back, and let the Nazis do their dirty work.

Yes there was a significant resistance in the countryside as well. Most of the leaders who survived the Nazis were either imprisoned or executed. A few were 're-educated', though most of the Soviet puppets (and all of the really important ones) were spirited away before the Germans took the Soviet half of Poland. I don't know whether the Soviets intended all along to run all of Poland, or if they merely wanted to solidify their control over their half, but in any event there was a very concerted effort to kill anyone who could interfere with their plans (Katyn forest, Warsaw ghetto and the liquidation of partisans), and to groom good Stalinists to run Poland.

[Sava]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Guy, why do you insist on quoting Sava? Some of us have him on our ignore lists.

Just like a conservative, trying to shut up everyone who tries to make the world a better place.

Hitler and OBL (were/are who knows) were conservatives too.

Although Stalin was a lefty.

Guy, I had family that lived through Communism and Fascism. Don't tell me my argument is flawed when I get my information from people who were there.

My Great Aunt on my mother's side is the daughter of Serbia's former prime minister pre-WWII. She shook Stalin's hand.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Sikander
I don't know whether the Soviets intended all along to run all of Poland, or if they merely wanted to solidify their control over their half, but in any event there was a very concerted effort to kill anyone who could interfere with their plans (Katyn forest, Warsaw ghetto and the liquidation of partisans), and to groom good Stalinists to run Poland.

Evil nasty sh*t to be sure, but still, in this case, it was the Soviets who "liberated" Poland, and not the local partisans. In Greece, it was the partisans who liberated the country, and then Britain came in to "stabilize" things. When the ELAS refused to allow the King to come back or turn power over to the Brits, the Brits attacked them.