"Blacks ought to be thankful for slavery; otherwise, they'd be back in Africa."

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Guynemer


My stars, you're obtuse.

Im not being obtuse, I am sticking to the topic of this thread - unlike you.

Originally posted by Guynemer
Slavery made them second-class citizens here. It didn't have to be that way! There's no way they should be grateful for that!

So are you denying that being a "second class" citizen here is better than living in africa?

Anyway, we're straying from the point of the thread.

You sure are.

You defended the two theses; thank you for your honesty. Seriously, I really do appreciate it.

Well I dont appreciate your insults, so shove it!

[Guynemer]

Originally posted by Osweld
Why are the technicalities of a hypothetical situation being debated? It seems inredibly pointless and futile to me.

Well, it's my own fault for engaging in them. You're right, I'd like to bring this back on point, if at all possible.

There are still several people who have yet to respond at all, and a few who have decided to merely debate the technicalities.

[Guynemer]

Originally posted by Caligastia


Im not being obtuse, I am sticking to the topic of this thread - unlike you.

Well, neither of us are. All I wanted to know was whether you'd defend the theses, I honestly didn't want to get into a debate about their validity.

So are you denying that being a "second class" citizen here is better than living in africa?

I've said it several times, but it appears that I must do so again:
Assuming all other things would remain the same in this "alternate timeline", yes, being a second-class citizen here is likely better than living in Africa. But it is WORSE than what other Americans experience, and likely worse than what black Americans would experience if not for slavery. Dig?

Well I dont appreciate your insults, so shove it!

I apologize. I'll also retract my compliments, if you so desire.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Osweld
Why are the technicalities of a hypothetical situation being debated? It seems inredibly pointless and futile to me.

Well we are debating whether slavery had some unintended positive outcomes or not, so we have to get hypothetical in some way.

We have to ask ourselves which is more likely:

1 - The descendants of african slaves in the US are better off than descendants who would have remained in africa without slavery.

2 - The descendants of african slaves in the US are worse off than descendants who would have remained in africa without slavery.


I say #1.

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by Caligastia


Well we are debating whether slavery had some unintended positive outcomes or not, so we have to get hypothetical in some way.

The debate is about whether blacks should be thankful for slavery, and the answer to that is, of course, NO.


Wether they are 'better off' or not is not only irrelevant, it's impossible to know.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Guynemer
I've said it several times, but it appears that I must do so again:
Assuming all other things would remain the same in this "alternate timeline", yes, being a second-class citizen here is likely better than living in Africa. But it is WORSE than what other Americans experience, and likely worse than what black Americans would experience if not for slavery. Dig?

I know what you are saying, I honestly do, but if not for slavery there would be no black descendants of slaves in america - correct? So how can what they experience now be "likely worse than what black Americans would experience if not for slavery" when there wouldnt be black americans descended from slaves if not for slavery.

I apologize. I'll also retract my compliments, if you so desire.

Thats up to you. I can do without insults though. Apology accepted.

[Guynemer]

Originally posted by Caligastia


I know what you are saying, I honestly do, but if not for slavery there would be no black descendants of slaves in america - correct? So how can what they experience now be "likely worse than what black Americans would experience if not for slavery" when there wouldnt be black americans descended from slaves if not for slavery.

EXACTLY! In that scenario, black Americans WOULD NOT BE descended from slaves! They likely would have better status in America! THAT is why they shouldn't be thankful for slavery! Now do you see what I'm saying?

And stop threadjacking!

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Osweld


The debate is about whether blacks should be thankful for slavery, and the answer to that is, of course, NO.

In your opinion.

Wether they are 'better off' or not is not only irrelevant, it's impossible to know.

Right! Its impossible to know for sure, sooooo....

We have to ask ourselves which is more likely:

1 - The descendants of african slaves in the US are better off than descendants who would have remained in africa without slavery.

2 - The descendants of african slaves in the US are worse off than descendants who would have remained in africa without slavery.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Guynemer


EXACTLY! In that scenario, black Americans WOULD NOT BE descended from slaves! They likely would have better status in America! THAT is why they shouldn't be thankful for slavery! Now do you see what I'm saying?

Yes, but we are talking about black americans who are descended from slaves. Black americans not descended from slaves are irrelevant. We dont even know if there would be such a thing as a black american in that scenario.

[MrFun]

I'm afraid a lot of you guys are wasting your time with the argument on whether or not descendants of Africans would be better off or worse off in Africa had there been no slavery.

It's all irrelevant. Slavery was reality in the United States until 1865. That is relevant.

Talk about what was reality -- do not talk about something that is unreasonably speculative on something that is not even relevant.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by MrFun
I'm afraid a lot of you guys are wasting your time with the argument on whether or not descendants of Africans would be better off or worse off in Africa had there been no slavery.

It's all irrelevant. Slavery was reality in the United States until 1865. That is relevant.

Talk about what was reality -- do not talk about something that is unreasonably speculative on something that is not even relevant.

I didnt start this thread.

This topic is relevant to the discussion of reparations for slavery. The reason they are asking for reparations is because they feel they are owed something. If their present situation is better than is would have been without slavery how can they claim to be owed something?

[General Ludd]

Calligsta, How about this: Cripple your legs, and 60 years from now when the technology allows(atleast, you'd better hope it does), you can get bionic legs and be able to run faster and jump further then you ever could... or atleast just aswell as you could before... well, maybe... I think...


Sounds like a good deal, no? You'd be thankful of being crippled most of your life, 'cause in the end, you'd get some nifty bionic legs... or at least some crutches!




I don't understand how anyone could possibly think that blacks should be thankful for slavery.

[MrFun]

If blacks are better off today in United States than they would have been in African states without slavery, that does not mean that slavery reparations would be unfair.

Here's an example:

A person is forced to live off of less than half the calories than the required number of calories for a healthy diet.

Based on your logic, he is better off on half number of calories than no calories, so he does not need to be on a diet of full calories, even though he is half-starving.

Keep him on half number of calories since he is already better than being dead from complete starvation, even though he is still half-starving.

Or is this a bad analogy??

[Lancer]

Caligastia, ask them if they would rather live in the US or the third world, it's as close as you'll ever get to winning this debate. A politically correct individual is not free to have their opinion swayed to a non politically correct pov. How could they ever face their more PC than thou college clique if they ever gave in to a reasoned arguement?

No, they are prone to name calling as soon as anything starts going against them, so you might just as well let them be content in their little PC reality world, rather than pointlessly try to show them the error of their ways.

Besides, some of them are nice people, so its best just to avoid certain subjects where they are not free to think for themselves.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by MrFun
If blacks are better off today in United States than they would have been in African states without slavery, that does not mean that slavery reparations would be unfair.

Here's an example:

A person is forced to live off of less than half the calories than the required number of calories for a healthy diet.

Based on your logic, he is better off on half number of calories than no calories, so he does not need to be on a diet of full calories, even though he is half-starving.

Keep on half number of calories since he is already better than beind dead from complete starvation, even though he is still half-starving.

Or is this a bad analogy??

Its not too bad of an analogy, but I just dont think throwing money at the problem will make it go away.

Its never good for someone to recieve money they havent earned. It would be much better to make sure everyone has equal opportunity than to artificially and temporarily make them more materially equal.