"Blacks ought to be thankful for slavery; otherwise, they'd be back in Africa."

[Guynemer]

Originally posted by Caligastia


What is it about that statement that you disagree with?

Basically, slavery has reduced the status of blacks as compared to white Americans.


Essentially, it comes down to this. Just as the Jews MIGHT have gotten Israel eventually without the Holocaust, blacks might have emigrated to the U.S. without slavery, and would be in much better shape economically, politcally, and socially because of it. There's no reason for them to be "thankful" for slavery, or to think slavery had an "unintended benefit" for them.



Drake--

Again, is Israel a better place than Europe? Depends on your perspective. In Israel, they're in power; they can assure that they aren't oppressed and wiped out by the government. In Europe, they'd be a minority, vulnerable as any.

[Guynemer]

Originally posted by Caligastia


Simply because they are still better off than they would have been.

"Thank heaven for slavery! We're second-class citizens and marginalized and profiled and denied rights, but hey, at least we're Americans!"

Bull****.

Why should they be thankful for being second-class citizens?

[SultanofATL]

Originally posted by Guynemer


Basically, slavery has reduced the status of blacks as compared to white Americans.


Essentially, it comes down to this. Just as the Jews MIGHT have gotten Israel eventually without the Holocaust, blacks might have emigrated to the U.S. without slavery, and would be in much better shape economically, politcally, and socially because of it. There's no reason for them to be "thankful" for slavery, or to think slavery had an "unintended benefit" for them.

Thank you. Seriously. I'm going to link this to several sites because you have said what this argument boils down to in the most eloquent way.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Guynemer
, blacks might have emigrated to the U.S. without slavery

Might have eh? Well thats just total speculation. Not only that, but its an extremely unlikely scenario. Its far far more likely that their descendants would still be in africa today.

[SultanofATL]

Plus its not just Whites its almost all groups that came here by free will and had basic rights upon thier first steps upon our soil.

[Guynemer]

Originally posted by SultanofATL


Thank you. Seriously. I'm going to link this to several sites because you have said what this argument boils down to in the most eloquent way.

Thanks for the compliment, but I've done better. In retrospect, that was an awfully awkward sentence.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Guynemer


"Thank heaven for slavery! We're second-class citizens and marginalized and profiled and denied rights, but hey, at least we're Americans!"

Bull****.

Why should they be thankful for being second-class citizens?

Whether you consider them to be "second-class citizens" here or not, the fact remains that they are better off being "second class" citizens here than in africa.

[Guynemer]

Originally posted by Caligastia


Might have eh? Well thats just total speculation. Not only that, but its an extremely unlikely scenario. Its far far more likely that their descendants would still be in africa today.

Why do you say that? Immigration from Africa has exploded in recent decades.

As for it being speculation, well, big fat duh. It's also speculation to say that Israel would have been given to the Jews without the Holocaust.

[Drake Tungsten]

Originally posted by Guynemer
Drake--

Again, is Israel a better place than Europe? Depends on your perspective. In Israel, they're in power; they can assure that they aren't oppressed and wiped out by the government. In Europe, they'd be a minority, vulnerable as any.

That's the problem with your analogy. You compare one situation (slavery) in which it is almost certain that the horrible act had some positive consequences and compared it to another situation (the Holocaust) in which there is no certainty as to whether the horrible act actually had positive consequences or not. Israel might be a better place to live than Europe, but there is just a great a chance that staying in Europe might have been the best move. In the end, it seems like you wanted to use the Holocaust for its shock value (as many people do) but didn't really think about the major differences between the two scenarios.

Anyway, I'm done ragging on you for now. From what I've read of your posts, you seem like a decent person and I certainly don't want to offend you over something as stupid as a misused analogy. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this.

[Guynemer]

Originally posted by Caligastia


Whether you consider them to be "second-class citizens" here or not, the fact remains that they are better off being "second class" citizens here than in africa.

My stars, you're obtuse.

Slavery made them second-class citizens here. It didn't have to be that way! There's no way they should be grateful for that!

Anyway, we're straying from the point of the thread. You defended the two theses; thank you for your honesty. Seriously, I really do appreciate it.

Oh Lord, I've knowing participated in a threadjacking of my own thread. I need sleep.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Guynemer


Why do you say that? Immigration from Africa has exploded in recent decades.

Back then it would have been almost impossible for the average native african to immigrate to the USA.

Originally posted by Guynemer
As for it being speculation, well, big fat duh. It's also speculation to say that Israel would have been given to the Jews without the Holocaust.

Well that is not what we are talking about is it? I was talking about slavery in america, I dont know about you...

[Guynemer]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
Anyway, I'm done ragging on you for now. From what I've read of your posts, you seem like a decent person and I certainly don't want to offend you over something as stupid as a misused analogy. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this.

Fair enough. But I'm right.

[Drake Tungsten]

Originally posted by Guynemer
Fair enough. But I'm right.

You are completely and utterly wrong!



edit: Put that in your sig and smoke it.

[Guynemer]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten


Of course you are!

See! You admitted it! I might just put that in my signature.

[General Ludd]

Why are the technicalities of a hypothetical situation being debated? It seems inredibly pointless and futile to me.