Slavery reparations

[Lung]

What a great idea! If only all history was recorded, i could find the descendants of the Vikings, Romans, and god knows who else who enslaved, raped, and killed my ancestors, i can become rich beyond my wildest dreams!!!

Of course, it gets a little complex when we trace the flow-on disadvantages down the generations all the way to me, divided by all the other descendants of my ancestors, but what do i care? I'll be RICH!!!

Of course, after i've paid out all that money for the bad things that my ancestors did, divided by my fellow descendants, i may actually have to pay more money than i make

Why exactly should reparations be made only where records exist of injustices? In any case, you can bet that the gaps will be "presumed" in order to fit the desired result

God help us if we ever give equal rights to chickens! We'll be paying them back for a million years!!!

[Ramo]

I was mixed up. I thought Calder was in the 1950's for some odd reason. Anyways, here are newere Court decisions that have affirmed Calder:

Carpenter v. Commonwealth, Johannessen v. United States, Bugajewitz v. Adams, and Mahler v. Eby

Civil ex post facto laws are perfectly Constitutional.

[Adam Smith]

A few comments before I head to bed.

According to NPR, the involvement of these corporations is as follows:
Aetna or its corporate predecessors wrote insurance poliicies on some southern slaves.
One of the founders of Fleet Financial was a man who engaged in the slave trade.
Part of CSX was built with slave labor.

By suing corporations the plaintiffs have made some attempt to sue current legal entities who may actually have had some involvement.

This does not mean that all or any substantial part of any of these corporations was built with slave labor. For example, Aetna wrote plenty of other insurance policies, and large chunks of CSX were built north of the Mason-Dixon line or after 1865.

According to the New York Times, the suit is filed on behalf of all 35 million current African Americans. I think the plaintiffs would have been on a lot frimer ground if they had bothered to make name as plaintiffs only those people whose ancestors had actually done the work in question.

Guynemer:
Do you have a cite for the $1.4 trillion?

Just as a matter of perspective, if AETNA made say $1 per person as a result of insuring slaves, the present value, at six percent interest for 137 years would be about $2,900. (Remember that a dollar was worth MUCH more 137 years ago.)

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Ramo
Anyways, here are newere Court decisions that have affirmed Calder:

Do you know where I could find a summary for those decisions?

[David Floyd]

I'd submit that the most fair course of action would be to send everyone of African descent whose ancestors were brought over in the slave trade to be given an apology and put on a plane back to Africa, from where they can apply for US immigration/citizenship if they wish.

But no, these ****heads want to have their cake and eat it, too.

[Guynemer]

Originally posted by Adam Smith
Guynemer:
Do you have a cite for the $1.4 trillion?

The CNN article on this story.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Lung
What a great idea! If only all history was recorded, i could find the descendants of the Vikings, Romans, and god knows who else who enslaved, raped, and killed my ancestors, i can become rich beyond my wildest dreams!!!

Of course, it gets a little complex when we trace the flow-on disadvantages down the generations all the way to me, divided by all the other descendants of my ancestors, but what do i care? I'll be RICH!!!

Of course, after i've paid out all that money for the bad things that my ancestors did, divided by my fellow descendants, i may actually have to pay more money than i make

Why exactly should reparations be made only where records exist of injustices? In any case, you can bet that the gaps will be "presumed" in order to fit the desired result

God help us if we ever give equal rights to chickens! We'll be paying them back for a million years!!!

Here's the argument fallacies you have used:

1) strawman argument

2) slippery slope argument

3) emotive language argument

You are deliberately distorting the intelligent argument in regards to one specific group -- descendants of African slaves in the Americas, Middle East, and Europe. Try not to distort the argument, ok??

[Guynemer]

Originally posted by David Floyd
I'd submit that the most fair course of action would be to send everyone of African descent whose ancestors were brought over in the slave trade to be given an apology and put on a plane back to Africa, from where they can apply for US immigration/citizenship if they wish.

But no, these ****heads want to have their cake and eat it, too.

Seriously, that is the most disgusting, hateful, ignorant statement that comes up during these discussions, and I'm tired of keeping my mouth shut about it. "They don't like it, they can go home." **** you, DF. THIS is their home. And they got screwed, and continue to get screwed. Take off your damned blinders. And everyone else who has used this argument. It's insulting, and does your cause harm instead of good.

[Guynemer]

Originally posted by Adam Smith
According to the New York Times, the suit is filed on behalf of all 35 million current African Americans. I think the plaintiffs would have been on a lot frimer ground if they had bothered to make name as plaintiffs only those people whose ancestors had actually done the work in question.

I agree; as is, the lawsuit is flawed. It ought to be refined, if only to gain more sympathy from the public at large. (You're the second person who's said that they would support it or that it would be on firmer ground if they had limited it to direct descendants.)

[Guynemer]

Originally posted by Lung
What a great idea! If only all history was recorded, i could find the descendants of the Vikings, Romans, and god knows who else who enslaved, raped, and killed my ancestors, i can become rich beyond my wildest dreams!!!

For the 18765th time, this is about corporations, NOT individuals, NOT families, NOT governments.

[David Floyd]

Seriously, that is the most disgusting, hateful, ignorant statement that comes up during these discussions, and I'm tired of keeping my mouth shut about it. "They don't like it, they can go home." **** you, DF. THIS is their home. And they got screwed, and continue to get screwed. Take off your damned blinders. And everyone else who has used this argument. It's insulting, and does your cause harm instead of good.

But wouldn't you agree that they are better off today in the US than dying of AIDs in some POS African country? Of COURSE their ancestors were screwed, but like pretty much everyone else who came to America, their descendants are 100 times better off than their ancestors. Seems to me they are just greedy SOBs who want to rob American society - which is esentially what suing corporations for $1.4 trillion is doing. And it seems to me the fact that they are alive and well and able to live in this country - regardless of the injustice of slavery - is reparation enough.

[MrFun]

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiight --- blacks are better off today because of slavery.

AGAIN, BULLS**T. I would expect this kind of irrational justification from racists and white supremacists, not from you David, or from some of the other Apolyton members.

Slavery has never improved the lives of those actually enslaved, nor their descendants.

[Guynemer]

Are they better off here? Yes. How does that, in any way, justify saying, "They want reparations? **** 'em. Send 'em back to Africa." Honestly, it makes you sound like a redneck with the Stars and Bars hanging in the rear window of his pick-up, on his way to a Klan cross-burning.

Are they better off here than in Africa? YES. Are they as well off as the descendants of other people who moved here during the same period? NO. NO. NO.

[David Floyd]

Hey smart guy, I never said blacks are well off today because of slavery, I'm saying it's an undisputable fact that on the whole they are better off here than they would be in Africa - which still doesn't justify slavery, but these people (as well as others) have eaten up billions upon billions in terms of social services and such, why should they get more?

[David Floyd]

Are they better off here than in Africa? YES. Are they as well off as the descendants of other people who moved here during the same period? NO. NO. NO.

Of course not.
My point is simple. Their main concern is that their descendants were forced out of their homes to come work on plantations.
Fine, that was wrong, I of course agree.
My solution would be to give anyone who wanted it free passage back to Africa, but anyone who chose to stay is out of luck on reparations - we take the fact that they live in the US and have received and continue to receive billions in social services/welfare, and call it even.