Slavery reparations

[David Floyd]

Absolutely. Making excuses for your own predicament and blaming everyone else only cements yourself in your rut. Look at Mugabe. He actively encourages rape, murder, torture, and every other form of violence at his disposal to suit his own political agenda and blames colonialism as an excuse to committ atrocities against mankind

Absolutely - look at the fools running South Africa, too.

compassion is the basis of civilisation

Hmmm...I disagree - ever read Ayn Rand?

[MrFun]

Originally posted by David Floyd


Slavery in America has zip to do with European colonial policies, and you know it.
You could also say the Irish got screwed by Oliver Cromwell, and Eastern Europe got ****ed by Attila the Hun, but that still has nothing to do with anything.

Damn you! Listen to what YOU are saying!

First, you said they would be worse off in Africa, then I simply stated why that would be the case, then I stated why your reasoning does not work in that instance.

And you think European colonialism had nothing to do with the trans-Atlantic slave trade, nor the slavery systems in the Americas?? They do, believe it or not.

And with the welfare statement -- David provided a distorted view on welfare, and I thought I had to clarify how welfare actually worked.

[Berzerker]

Ramo -

Civil ex post facto laws are perfectly Constitutional.

The Constitution prohibits the states and the Congress from passing ex post facto legislation. It contains no exceptions for anything. The fact the courts have conveniently ruled the prohibition doesn't include tax laws doesn't make them constitutional. Well, what if the Congress passed a tax law increasing our taxes from the day we were born or even before that?

In the section that prohibits the Congress from passing such laws it gives no explanation as to why, but in the section prohibiting the states from passing such laws it does explain why - which is reasonable since the Framers were removing a power from the states - the reason is that ex post facto laws can have the effect of damaging existing contracts. If you increase a tax on people after they've paid their taxes and planned on the future, you've put them in a financial bind that can damage their existing contracts - financial obligations.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Guynemer
Not following about your first sentence.

I'm asking why bring welfare in the debate at all when it is totally irrelevent at the issue at hand: Ex post facto suits being used in an attempt to punish a corporation for engaging in a legal activity well over a century ago.

[David Floyd]

And you think European colonialism had nothing to do with the trans-Atlantic slave trade, nor the slavery systems in the Americas??

Oh, I forgot - without the Royal Navy slavery would have been a worse problem

In any event, slavery in America and European colonialism, while linked in the sense that everything is somehow linked, were two distinct entities, and either would have existed even if the other didn't.

[Lung]

Originally posted by David Floyd

Absolutely - look at the fools running South Africa, too.

Oh, yes, yes and YES! Actually, i don't think they're fools - i think it's much more sinister than foolishness

Hmmm...I disagree - ever read Ayn Rand?

Not lately I could have elaborated more, but it would take all day

[MrFun]

Originally posted by David Floyd


Oh, I forgot - without the Royal Navy slavery would have been a worse problem

In any event, slavery in America and European colonialism, while linked in the sense that everything is somehow linked, were two distinct entities, and either would have existed even if the other didn't.

What??
I am not following you. You're saying slavery would have occured in the Americas without European colonialism??

If that is your claim, it does not make sense to me.

DinoDoc, I already explained about the welfare system that David initiated -- enough on that.

[David Floyd]

I am not following you. You're saying slavery would have occured in the Americas without European colonialism??

Oh, OK, what you're saying just clicked with me - hey it's late

But still, European colonialism is a historical fact, and you can't justify forcing the US to pay reparations because of what Europeans did. So my point still holds.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by David Floyd


Oh, OK, what you're saying just clicked with me - hey it's late

But still, European colonialism is a historical fact, and you can't justify forcing the US to pay reparations because of what Europeans did. So my point still holds.

Nope, your point does not still hold, in my humble opinion.

The United States or the Southern states within the United States never took peaceful steps to emancipate its slaves -- it held out longer than many other countries in terms of slavery -- not all, but many others.

[Lung]

Perhaps a more pressing issue is the one about modern slavery that exists today! I think the estimate i read the other day was about 41 million!

Perhaps we should be helping them instead of african-americans who may or may not direct descendants of slavery, regardless of how well off they may or may not be

[Ramo]

The Constitution prohibits the states and the Congress from passing ex post facto legislation. It contains no exceptions for anything.

The SC's reasoning went along the lines of this: In Article 1 Section 10 where ex post facto legislation is prohibited, it also prohibts "(1) the making of anything but gold and silver coin a tender in the payment of debts, and (2) the passage of any law impairing the obligations of contracts." And from that, the SC gathered that the ex post facto was not designed to include civil cases pertaining to property. Whether or not the reasoning is valid, it is law.

the reason is that ex post facto laws can have the effect of damaging existing contracts.

That doesn't mean that all ex post facto laws are bad. Frankly, I believe that the prohibition on criminal ex post facto laws is ludicrous. An act should not be unpunishible for no other reason than the fact that the state, at the time, did not consider it a crime. I can imagine how that kind of defense would've gone over at Nuremburg.

Dino, I'm going to bed. Look them up yourself.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Ramo
Dino, I'm going to bed. Look them up yourself.

I'm about to go to bed as well but I don't really have time to read so many opinions. I was hoping that you could give me a link where I could find a summary of them.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Ramo
I can imagine how that kind of defense would've gone over at Nuremburg.

Germany recognized the Geneva Convention, Ramo. They just didn't follow it.

[David Floyd]

No, they shoulda just used the perfectly valid "following orders which I swore to do" argument - oh wait they did that, well I guess might makes right as usual

Oops, wrong thread

[MrFun]

Originally posted by David Floyd
No, they shoulda just used the perfectly valid "following orders which I swore to do" argument - oh wait they did that, well I guess might makes right as usual

Oops, wrong thread

Maybe Southerners require like 12 hours of sleep just to retain normal thinking skills while Yanks require only 8 hours of sleep, and they're still super-intelligent.

*** runs to get his flame retardant suit on ***