Who lost China's Internet?

[ranskaldan]

Originally posted by DinoDoc


I think we both maybe looking in different areas.

What about the freedom to be openly critical of the government and advocate democracy? To worship as one chooses? To bring Bibles into the country? Right not to be tortured to death? Any number of political and religious liberties?

I think the keyword here is IMPROVEMENT.

The situation in China is far from perfect, but as mindseye has mentioned, the Chinese now have the right to:

How about increasing freedom to work where you want? To live where you want? Start your own business? Visit foreign countries (Germany is next on the list)? Socialize with foreigners? Work for a foreign company? Get a divorce? Buy a car and drive wherever you want? Read western news on the Internet (see my previous post)? Openly listen to Voice of America on the radio? Communicate anonymously through email & chat rooms? Expose a corrupt official? Take your landlord to court? Argue with a policeman? Publicly criticize Mao? Travel to other cities? Open a gay bar? Allow foreigners to live or buy homes wherever they want? Attend a university of choice? Choose your field of study? Study abroad? Witness debate in the Peoples Congress? Watch western films and tv shows?

All these are a result of the country opening up, and they themselves contribute to further opening.

Thus, any proposal to cut off trade or tourism, or boycott Chinese goods, or anything else that would hinder this opening process, is counterproductive, illogical, and heartless, and will only prolong oppression and injustice. If you want to help, then don't do these things.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by DaShi
As for religion, there was an active public Catholic church in my town.

The Chinese State-mandated version of the Catholic faith hardly rates a mention, IMO.

[DaShi]

I really didn't notice any difference.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by DaShi
I really didn't notice any difference.

You wouldn't.

[ranskaldan]

Originally posted by DinoDoc


The Chinese State-mandated version of the Catholic faith hardly rates a mention, IMO.

I'm not going to deny the relative lack of religious freedom in China, but the keyword continues to be improvement.
Two decades ago the Chinese barely had the right to believe in anything but atheism. Churches were burnt down. Today, they exist and flourish. You may say that they exist in a perverse manner, but they exist nonetheless. That's a good sign.

Besides, as I've said so many times before, if you want to help China become more open, (and thus improve the Catholic Church situation), then boycotting certainly isn't the solution, on the other hand it only helps to worsen it.

[DaShi]

Being born and raised Catholic has made me oblivious to everything.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by ranskaldan

I'm amazed by people actually think that by boycotting Chinese goods, they're somehow doing the Chinese people - and the United States - a favor. The truth is - neither. In fact, you're helping to ruin the nation of China and its economy, the people's incomes, it's development, and any chance of ever opening up. You might argue that this will also get rid of the commies, but as I said, destroying an entire country to get rid of its govt is like crushing your own skull to get rid of a migraine..

I'm doing myself a favor because the quality of the products I buy has gone up, I'm doing my country a favor because I am denying a state which is our enemy in all but name foreign exchange with which to buy Russian submarines etc. to use against us, and I don't see how it's going to hurt the Chinese to not be allowed to work a dangerous factory job cranking out endless amounts of resource gobbling trash for the West.

[Alinestra Covelia]

Originally posted by SMAC Fanatic
Ugh, I hate this debate...

I'm a devil's advocate in and of myself. I'm forever seeing both sides of the argument and, while I normally support one, I can see exactly where it's wrong and the other is right.

A laudable position, and one I'm all too often guilty of myself.

However, I believe that certain human rights (freedom of speech, movement, thought, life, etc.) are completely essential and as such should never ever ever ever be infringed. End of story. China doesn't uphold them, therefore China is wrong. Period.

I also see where you're coming from with this, and to a large extent I agree with you. However, bear in mind that these beliefs in human rights are in themselves a relatively very recent development. Basic human rights, although propounded as early as the US Constitution, are often confused with basic democratic rights. They are not the same thing, in my opinion.

Secondly, China makes no pretence of its developing nation status. If you bear in mind that Chinese incidents such as Tiananmen et al were actually echoes of similarly heavy-handed incidents in America back in the 60s, then China's present rate of development seems reasonably in line. Maybe within another forty years, China will have come the same distance that America has covered in the previous 40 years, and be a much more egalitarian state. Give them time.

Remember that no nation is a complete work in itself - all the world's nations and governments are works in progress, hopefully striving to become more efficient, and to adapt as situations change. My brother lives in Beijing, and I have just come back from a trip to China for the New Year - you'd be surprised at the amount of similarities between Chinese and western lifestyles now. Of course, there are differences, and some of them would be completely bewildering to a westerner (I know I found them so!) but they're definitely working upwards.

My lasting impression was talking to a Chinese taxi driver just outside Mao's mausoleum. He wanted to know about America, and I wanted to hear about a commoner's view of China. He said that of course everybody's very happy at the increasing economy that trade with the US is bringing in, but many people fear the chaos of the past, both during and before the Communist rule. Quite a few prefer to slow down political and economic change if it means avoiding those dangerous times.

And he flatly refused to believe me when I told him US firms offer around $20k per annum for a starting wage - Chinese high-tech corporate staff start with around 8000 yuan per month, or $12k USD per year. Another sign of America's privileged background, and the distance that lies between America and the nations with which it has relations.

Meanwhile, as for me personally I am very laid back about the whole thing. If I can make money for me, and bring trade to both countries, then I'll have found my dream job!

[Adam Smith]

Alinestra:

If you bear in mind that Chinese incidents such as Tiananmen et al were actually echoes of similarly heavy-handed incidents in America back in the 60s

I disagree with this statement. What happened at Tiananmen is not even remotely comparable in motive or scope to what happened at say Kent State. I think The more relevant comparison is to earlier cycles in Chinese history. See below.

but many people fear the chaos of the past

I agree with this statement. When we were in China in February 1996 nobody would talk about Tienanmen or anything else remotely political. However by the time of our second trip in July 1998 people (sometimes the same people) were much more willing to talk. Teinanmen was still a touchy subject. However, most people expressed (without prompting) strong negative memories of the Cultural Revolution, and the sufferning, death, imprisonment, and humiliation it brought to their families. They were absolutely determined that this not happen again, and they indicated that this required that the government be responsive to peoples wishes.

Give them time.

I agree with this. I think the reelvant comparison is not to the US or other western countries, but to earlier cycles of Chinese history. Chinese dynasties begin their reign with the promise and realization of reform. The whole system gradually becomes more unwieldy under the burden of trying to govern so many people. Chinese dyasties eventually became repressive or corrupt, and collapsed under their own weight, to be supplanted by a new round of reformers. I think the same is happening in China today. The Communists gained the Mandate of Heaven in the 30's and 40's, and lost it at Tiananmen. As Chinese economic freedoms grow, the demand for political freedom grows also. Eventually Chinese society will become so large and complex that it is simply impossible to govern in an authoritarian manner, and the next cycle will begin. IF we help that along with trade and commerce, so much the better.

I also second Mindseye's statement that the Chinese Government is not the same as the Chinese people. And in the parts of China that we were in (economically advanced areas near the coast) it was perfectly obvious that in most matters local control was more important that what Beijing said.

[Transcend]

Originally posted by Sikander


I'm doing myself a favor because the quality of the products I buy has gone up, I'm doing my country a favor because I am denying a state which is our enemy in all but name foreign exchange with which to buy Russian submarines etc. to use against us, and I don't see how it's going to hurt the Chinese to not be allowed to work a dangerous factory job cranking out endless amounts of resource gobbling trash for the West.

What do you think is more dangerous:

1. An open and prosperous China where its leadership has constantly to make comprise in order to appease the population and the world;

or

2. A China full of ignorant and nationalistic masses who blindly support their government because they feel rejected by the rest of the world; and a China who has thousands of ICBMs pointed to the United States?

Sikander, what you are doing here is trying to create the second scenario, a LOSE-LOSE situation for everyone involved.

[ranskaldan]

Originally posted by Sikander


I'm doing myself a favor because the quality of the products I buy has gone up

Ok, can't argue with that.

I'm doing my country a favor because I am denying a state which is our enemy in all but name foreign exchange with which to buy Russian submarines etc. to use against us,

You are also denying a PEOPLE their income. This is exactly what me and a few others have been trying to say. The Chinese people aren't equivalent to their government.

What you're essentially doing is indefinitely postponing the economic development of a country (and not just a government) of more than a billion people, which in itself is morally questionable. You may argue that this helps to keep the communist government in check, but it does exactly the reverse. A government in a desperate country does desperate things, because it has less to lose. Being poor doesn't keep a government in "check", as history repeatedly shows in Cuba in 1962 and Cambodia.

In addition, keeping a government in check (when in fact you aren't doing anyway) is hardly justification for keeping 1.2 billion people in grinding poverty.

Not to mention that you're also fueling nationalist sentiment and therefore providing justification for the Chinese people to continue to support their communist rulers.

One of the few reasons the Communist government continues to receive wary support despite 50 years of oppression is because , the government is considered by most Chinese citizens to be only the stabilizing factor in keeping the underdeveloped country from imploding into civil war. If you keep boycotting goods and slowing China's development, you continue to justify this too.

and I don't see how it's going to hurt the Chinese to not be allowed to work a dangerous factory job cranking out endless amounts of resource gobbling trash for the West.

The Chinese economy has been greatly privatized. If you boycott Chinese goods, the majority will be products from private enterprises.

I respect your moral choice, and I share your negative sentiments for communism. However, what you're doing simply isn't helping. The only way China can change it's current situation without a political upheaval is through opening up, via trade and tourism. So don't hinder this only possible peaceful process of getting rid of communism.

I know when you see the label "Made in China", it's very easy to automatically think of the oppressive Communist government and the Red Threat. But the money that you subsequently pay is fueling the incomes of families, raising living standards, and providing a glimmer of hope for a developed China that is open, and therefore, democratic.

[ranskaldan]

double post

[mindseye]

Sorry for the long post - I type while you all sleep!

I think we both maybe looking in different areas.

As others have pointed out, it's the progress that's the point. Look at the Chinese status quo in 1970, 1980, 1990, and today - then extrapolate that steep curve into the next twenty or fifty years. As Alinestra pointed out, life for many in China's major cities is now nearly the same as life in a major American city, differing primarily in cultural ways, not in comfort or technology. That's truly amazing if you look at life here as recently as 1980.

What about (...)

There's no denying China has a long way to go in many areas, but the good news is that the pace of change has not yet showed sign of slowing. Even Bush noted, during a speech in Beijing yesterday, that there are now actual elections at the local level. It's true that when non-Party candidates win, they can be thwarted in their efforts by Party officials. Nonetheless the fact that there is voting at any level at all, as well as debate in the Peoples National Congress, is welcome news. It's hard to reverse changes like that.

To bring Bibles into the country?

You can bring Bibles into the country. You can get into trouble, however, if you bring large numbers of Bibles into the country. It may also help to keep in mind that Christianity's history in China is not a very pretty one. When a weird version of Christianity got out of control in the 1860's a million Chinese were dead by the time the dust settled. Hard to forget something like that.

During my time in China, I never felt that my freedoms were restricted.

My experience has been the same. In fact, here in Shanghai, in ways I actually feel more free due to the laughably low level of crime. Last week I was joking with two other Americans, we agreed that back home there are so many more cops prowling around, and they are so heavily-armed, that it's the US that feels like a "police state". I can't tell you how refreshing it is to live in a place practically free of violent crime, vandalism, graffiti, etc. Imagine - padded seats on buses!

As for religion, there was an active public Catholic church in my town.

There are actually a surprising number of churches in Shanghai, including some very beautiful ones. However, I have never been inside one during services, and can't really say what mass is like (I'm an atheist). Maybe I'll attend sometime soon just to see what it's like. If so, I'll report back here.

I'm doing my country a favor because I am denying a state which is our enemy in all but name (...)

That would be news to most Chinese. How is China our enemy? Why, China's our #4 trading partner - and may soon pass Japan to become #3! And please don't even mention selling arms or technology to countries like Iran & Iraq, unless you also call France and Germany our "enemy in all but name". I'll laugh about this next time I'm eating in one of our "enemy's" McDonalds, surrounded by Chinese clad in Jeans West, Giordano and Esprit, watching the Chevys and Buicks drive by on the enemy's streets outside.

(...) foreign exchange with which to buy Russian submarines etc. to use against us,

China's largely defensive military, outside of its tiny, outdated nuclear arsenal (which has not been improved for years) poses no credible threat to the US in any way. It doesn't even pose much of a threat to Japan or Taiwan!

and I don't see how it's going to hurt the Chinese to not be allowed to work a dangerous factory job

I'm sorry, I don't think you understand the situation. Work in a factory is usually far more lucrative than twiddling your thumbs on a village farm. Countryfolk are quite happy to score a factory job, often allowing them to build new homes back in the village, buy modern appliances, pay for education for their children, etc. I don't think they would sympathize with your boycott at all.

cranking out endless amounts of resource gobbling trash for the West.

Well, I guess it's easier to justify your well-intentioned but ill-considered boycott when you use loaded words like "dangerous" and "trash", but for what it's worth, an increasing amount of goods manufactured in China these days are quite good, and a great deal of them are destined for the domestic market. My new Shanghai-manufactured Whirlpool washer is wonderful, and buying it sent money to both economies. As Ranskaldan pointed out, the party you are most hurting is Chinese workers. Aren't they the ones you hope to help?

If you boycott Chinese goods, the majority will be products from private enterprises.

Quite true, the economy is now more than 50% privatized. Unless you are buying pig iron or locomotives or something, I doubt many Chinese-manufactured products you could purchase in the US came from old state-owned enterprises.

Quite a few prefer to slow down political and economic change if it means avoiding those dangerous times.

Here in Shanghai, I have never heard anyone expressing a desire to take the foot off the gas! But then again, that's Shanghai compared to backwards Beijing. Also, I doubt many peasants out west are hoping for any deceleration.

And he flatly refused to believe me when I told him US firms offer around $20k per annum for a starting wage - Chinese high-tech corporate staff start with around 8000 yuan per month, or $12k USD per year. Another sign of America's privileged background

True, but you failed to take into account that everything also costs much more in the US. When I tell Chinese friends that the rent for my modest apartment in San Francisco was 10,000 yuan/month, that having your teeth inspected was about 800 yuan, and a haircut about 300 yuan, that quickly puts things back into perspective. Those same things here would cost about 2,500 yuan, 50 yuan, and 20 yuan, respectively.

Even here in expensive Shanghai, that salary of 8k yuan/mo you mentioned would allow one to live quite comfortably. You could buy a reasonably nice home on a salary like that. In what large American city could you own a comfortable home on $12k/year?

- mindseye

[ranskaldan]

lol mindseye, that's a very good post.

I keep on getting this feeling that a lot of people think of China as an anthill filled with faceless drones dedicated to the building of an Evil Empire. Thus, the logic follows that this anthill must be denied its food source and be left alone to starve and disappear.

Which, of course, is very far from anything resembling truth.

[Transcend]

Originally posted by ranskaldan
I keep on getting this feeling that a lot of people think of China as an anthill filled with faceless drones dedicated to the building of an Evil Empire. Thus, the logic follows that this anthill must be denied its food source and be left alone to starve and disappear.

If that were the case, that 'anthill' would be throwing thousands of nuclear warheads all over the world before being starved to death. After all, people with nothing to lose are the most dangerous ones.

Fortunetaly, it's not the case. But people like Sikander can make it a reality.