Who lost China's Internet?

[ranskaldan]

Re: Through the Looking Glass

Originally posted by DinoDoc


I forgot to mention the fact that people are sentenced to death for bringing Bibles of all things into the country.

Other than the fact that the Chinese Communist Party has decided to put away the sledgehammer when dealing out political and religious repression, I don't see any substantive improvement in many areas.

Well that's a very LARGE sledgehammer, and I would definitely consider putting away that sledgehammer substantive improvement.

You're mixing two different issues here. Trade and tourism are different from allowing them to host the Olympics or membership.

The Olympics and sitting on the WTO symbolize for the Chinese government acceptance by the international community. Something which they have not earned and nor do they deserve it at this point.

Well try to withdraw the Olympics and see what happens.

The Chinese population will erupt in fury. No, they would not say, "Ah, but our government deserves this." Instead, they would consider this is to be an affront to the Chinese race and continued evidence that the Americans are all capitalist and racist *******s. Meanwhile, top leaders hold fire-filled speeches which further convince the Chinese population that the Americans are evil rich snobs.

Not that I agree with any of this, of course. But I don't think denying China the Olympics would achieve what you want to achieve. I mean, the very POINT is to get rid of the commies, right? Why then do you want to do something that would only strengthen their position and general Chinese resentment for the West, for purely symbolic reasons?

[DaShi]

I agree, the only people who can get rid of or correct the corrupt Chinese officials are the Chinese people. However, they haven't been able to do it for the last 4000 years, so don't hold your breath.

[Atahualpa]

I have nothing against commies, but I have something against chinas government. Well okay I am a bit suspicious about communist governments, but mainly because they always turn out the same.

Cuba does not even come close to china. Yet China is treated good because of the great market that lies there. And Cuba is pissed on, because its so small and unimportant and has little of value.
Great policy!!!

ata

[Sikander]

The Chinese don't deserve our trade, regardless of whether our government has the balls to say so. My girlfriend and I have personally been boycotting Chinese goods for years. I'm positive that our efforts have not been 100% effective, but it's something we can do right now regardless of the prevailing trend of the government, and if enough people do it then it will have an effect. Amusingly, there's nothing a pliant politician can do about it either. When we are convinced that the Chinese are serious about becoming a people that aren't working overtime to invent chilling new means of expanding the police state we will be willing to trade with them.

The spy plane incident shows just how much power that the Chinese government has over it's people. How could anyone expect a flying pig like our surveillance plane to be able to nail a fighter, not to mention want to? Stupid, and dangerous for people to be so suggestable.

[kittenOFchaos]

I deserve my right to be human!

[DinoDoc]

Re: Re: Through the Looking Glass

Originally posted by ranskaldan
The Chinese population will erupt in fury.

I could not possibly care less about the Chinese population's sentiment toward American due to the fatc that the government seem quite capable of stiring up anti-American nationalism at the drop of a hat in order to cover its own incompetence.

Why then do you want to do something that would only strengthen their position and general Chinese resentment for the West, for purely symbolic reasons?

Considering the time frame in which the WTO and Olympic decisions were made there were material reasons to deny them both rewards.

[mindseye]

Getting back on topic ...

I have to say the capabilities of the "Great Firewall of China" are highly overrated. My personal experience does not square with some of the article's claims.

It is true that you cannot reach the sites of CNN, Washington Post, or San Francisco Chronicle. However, you can visit the New York Times, Reuters, ABCnews, AnaNova, Yahoo News (all major wire stories), New Republic, Slate, many offical US gov't sites, etc., ... and of course, Apolyton. I really cannot explain why the filtering is so inconsistant, it's not like the New York Times is an obscure information source.

I don't know any Chinese internet user who has any problem getting news or email. If they are concerned about their surfing being monitored, they can surf anonymously at any internet café .There are thousands of "net bars" in Shanghai alone, you can find them in every neighborhood. Even Tibet now has them.

As for email, I have not had any problem sending or receiving email with political content, including content critical of Beijing. Judging from the spam I receive, neither does there seem to be any filtering of porn email. I use the internet from my apartment, and I do not think there is any way for the censors in Beijing to know if I am a foreigner or just another Chinese apartment dweller.

- mindseye

[mindseye]

I could not possibly care less about the Chinese population's sentiment toward American due to the fatc that the government seem quite capable of stiring up anti-American nationalism

Don't be too sure of that.

Sure, teenage boys rant in chatrooms, and the authorities can manage to round up a crowd for certain carefully orchestrated events tailored for western soundbyte-driven news.

But if you want to know the truth, from my experience and that of other Americans I've spoken with, Chinese overwhelmingly like the USA. Some are critical of US gov't policy, but in general they are quite well-disposed towards America and Americans - much more than, say, Europeans. That good will is not something to be casually discarded.

[mindseye]

The Chinese don't deserve our trade (...) My girlfriend and I have personally been boycotting Chinese goods for years.

I don't think this makes much sense if you really care about the welfare of the Chinese people. Who is better able to pressure their gov't for reforms? Who is easier for a gov't to control? A wealthy, educated people with access to modern telecommunications, or an impoverished ill-educated, isolated people? I think you may have run afoul of Western Myth Concerning China #1, namely: Chinese Government = Chinese People. (By the way, #2 is The Chinese Communist Party leaders in Beijing run China).

Stupid, and dangerous for people to be so suggestable.

Sorry, but I think that's an overly broad and ill-considered opinion. Don't be quite so certain all Chinese bought the gov't line. Besides, many who did saw very convincing computer-generated graphics and animations showing how the EP-3 suddenly veered into the fighter's path as it approached on a legitimate, routine intercept. Recall that the American attack on the Chinese embassy on Belgrade (and denials from Washington) was still fresh in people's minds, along with recent harsh rhetoric from Bush. Finally, if this had occurred between a US fighter and a Chinese spy plane off the coast of California, how much more objective do you think the US public would have been? Before you answer ... "Remember the Maine!"

- mindseye

[ranskaldan]

I don't get it. I mean, isn't the point of being against communism

1) getting rid of communism
2) opening up communist countries
3) acquainting people under communist rule with the outside world
4) helping people free themselves?

Why doesn't anyone realize that boycotting goods, closing down trade, taking away the Olympics, etc. accomplishes NONE of these goals, at least not until the entire country is ruined already?

I'm amazed by people actually think that by boycotting Chinese goods, they're somehow doing the Chinese people - and the United States - a favor. The truth is - neither. In fact, you're helping to ruin the nation of China and its economy, the people's incomes, it's development, and any chance of ever opening up. You might argue that this will also get rid of the commies, but as I said, destroying an entire country to get rid of its govt is like crushing your own skull to get rid of a migraine..

[ranskaldan]

Originally posted by mindseye
I think you may have run afoul of Western Myth Concerning China #1, namely: Chinese Government = Chinese People. (By the way, #2 is The Chinese Communist Party leaders in Beijing run China).
- mindseye

Thank you mindseye

[mindseye]

Woops - thought I posted this during last night's posting spree, somehow I failed to.

Other than the fact that the Chinese Communist Party has decided to put away the sledgehammer when dealing out political and religious repression, I don't see any substantive improvement in many areas.

Guess you're not looking very hard!

How about increasing freedom to work where you want? To live where you want? Start your own business? Visit foreign countries (Germany is next on the list)? Socialize with foreigners? Work for a foreign company? Get a divorce? Buy a car and drive wherever you want? Read western news on the Internet (see my previous post)? Openly listen to Voice of America on the radio? Communicate anonymously through email & chat rooms? Expose a corrupt official? Take your landlord to court? Argue with a policeman? Publicly criticize Mao? Travel to other cities? Open a gay bar? Allow foreigners to live or buy homes wherever they want? Attend a university of choice? Choose your field of study? Study abroad? Witness debate in the Peoples Congress? Watch western films and tv shows?

All of these improvements have happened in the last 10 years, many in the last five. Virtually all of them are directly attributable to the rapid opening up of China, a process that some here advocate reversing in the name of battling oppression.

- mindseye

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by mindseye
Guess you're not looking very hard!

I think we both maybe looking in different areas.

What about the freedom to be openly critical of the government and advocate democracy? To worship as one chooses? To bring Bibles into the country? Right not to be tortured to death? Any number of political and religious liberties?

[Transcend]

Originally posted by DinoDoc


I think we both maybe looking in different areas.

What about the freedom to be openly critical of the government and advocate democracy? To worship as one chooses? To bring Bibles into the country? Right not to be tortured to death? Any number of political and religious liberties?

You are only looking at negative sides of China, while ignoring the positives. Of course China does not measure up to the level of the US, but at least this country IS IMPROVING. It is improving not because of some useless economic embargos, but because of the engagement policies of the free world.

The liberties you mentioned are somewhat lacking in China. But they will eventually arrive, and much sooner if the free world continues to engage China.

[DaShi]

Originally posted by DinoDoc


I think we both maybe looking in different areas.

What about the freedom to be openly critical of the government and advocate democracy? To worship as one chooses? To bring Bibles into the country? Right not to be tortured to death? Any number of political and religious liberties?

During my time in China, I never felt that my freedoms were restricted. As for religion, there was an active public Catholic church in my town. Even Shanghai still uses its cathedral. Though, I agree with China on the Bibles issue. If I had my own country, I wouldn't want Bibles in it either.