Who lost China's Internet?

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Atahualpa
well cuba doesnt treat its citizen like dogs!

Yes, they do. That's one of the perks available to any self-respecting dictator.

Now to do a 180...

ranskaldan: I'm going to have to question the pay off our policy of contact with the Chinese government has given us.

1) We have a government who's pilots damage our aircraft and kidnap our personel in order to demand an apology from us over the whole incident.

2) We have a government that still represses any move toward democratization.

3) We have a government signing treaties in order to form an axis to oppose our interests.

I could go on further but this seems like enough for now.

[KrazyHorse]

Dino

There's no way you can support the assertion that Cuba has a worse human rights record than China does. Cuba's government violates its citizens' rights, but much less so than those of many other Latin American countries, and definitely less so than that of China.

[DinoDoc]

Re: Dino

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
There's no way you can support the assertion that Cuba has a worse human rights record than China does.

What I'm saying is that one can not call for a boycott on one repressive regime and then say that we must be soft on a similar regime. I have no intention of argueing that Castro is a kin to Satan himself because it would be irrelevent.

[ranskaldan]

Originally posted by DinoDoc


1) We have a government who's pilots damage our aircraft and kidnap our personel in order to demand an apology from us over the whole incident.

2) We have a government that still represses any move toward democratization.

3) We have a government signing treaties in order to form an axis to oppose our interests.

I could go on further but this seems like enough for now.

Well, BEFORE China opened up 20 years ago,

1) We had a government which gave no economic freedom to its people, with fixed prices and absolutely no competition in nearly all sectors, from manufacturing, to retail, to services.

2) We had a government that regularly suppressed the educated class, stopped the school system, and denounced education as irrelevant to the revolution.

3) We had a government which caused famines, killing tens of millions of people, and ruined the country's economy in the process.

None of those above points apply to China today, just a mere 20 years later.

True, China's records remain horrific if we compare them to that of the West. But the amount of improvement that has occurred in the past twenty years as a RESULT of the open-door policy is simply astounding. Thus, to propose that we should close down China by stopping trade, tourism, and the Olympics, is simply illogical.

[Transcend]

Originally posted by DinoDoc


Yes, they do. That's one of the perks available to any self-respecting dictator.

Now to do a 180...

ranskaldan: I'm going to have to question the pay off our policy of contact with the Chinese government has given us.

1) We have a government who's pilots damage our aircraft and kidnap our personel in order to demand an apology from us over the whole incident.

2) We have a government that still represses any move toward democratization.

3) We have a government signing treaties in order to form an axis to oppose our interests.

I could go on further but this seems like enough for now.

1. That's up to debate who caused the accident. Chinese all believe it was the Americans whose fault is greater. I mean if you spy on another country and then got caught, you should expect VIP treatment.

2. Yes, "STILL" is the keyword here. If you know what China was like 10 years ago, you would see that the 'human rights' situations there have indeed improved.

3. With whom did China form an axis?

[KrazyHorse]

Dino

Maybe you should simply find a middle ground where you aren't completely embargoing one nation while giving the other "most favoured nation" trading status. I don't think I'm the one with the inconsistent view here.

Go softer on the one you've been *******s to for the last 40 years, go harder on the one whose ass you've been licking for the last 25.

[Goingonit]

I agree with the free information thing: it will get throug, it is just too hard to contain.

And maybe the cuban embargo is not supported by anyone in the US gov, they just think they'd lose face if it were abandoned.

[Imran Siddiqui]

KH, the middle ground would be an interesting thing. What would it be? 50% tariffs on all goods for both nations? I don't think that is going to work.

Anyway, what Dino was saying was either embargo both or have Normal Trade Relations (Most Favored Nation isn't a status anymore, it has changed to NTR) with both nations.

[DinoDoc]

Re: Dino

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
I don't think I'm the one with the inconsistent view here.

That's very good. I'm not being inconsistent either because placing an embargo on a country simply because you don't like the government is a useless policy.

Goingonit: And maybe the cuban embargo is not supported by anyone in the US gov, they just think they'd lose face if it were abandoned.

What they would loose is votes in the politically important Cuban-American community who so the maintaining the embargo as a hot button issue.

[Transcend]

Originally posted by Goingonit
IAnd maybe the cuban embargo is not supported by anyone in the US gov, they just think they'd lose face if it were abandoned.

I think that's the case. Embargos generally don't work and are bad for business.

[ranskaldan]

Originally posted by Transcend


I think that's the case. Embargos generally don't work and are bad for business.

Bad for the people who're being embargoed against too. Very bad.

You can't have an embargo against a government, only against an entire country. And that defeats the entire purpose of the embargo, unless you hate the entire country and want to wipe a race off the face of the planet.

[Goingonit]

Originally posted by ranskaldan


Bad for the people who're being embargoed against too. Very bad.

You can't have an embargo against a government, only against an entire country. And that defeats the entire purpose of the embargo, unless you hate the entire country and want to wipe a race off the face of the planet.

They work against democratic countries where popular pressure can cause the government to change their ways.

[ranskaldan]

Originally posted by Goingonit


They work against democratic countries where popular pressure can cause the government to change their ways.

ok.... but give an example so that i can see how this works.

In most cases, especially in dictatorships, the people will tend to hate a foreign power (eg America) more than their own government.

This is because the nation's government will tend to demonize the foreigners, thus conveniently shifting all the blame away.

[Goingonit]

Originally posted by ranskaldan


ok.... but give an example so that i can see how this works.

In most cases, especially in dictatorships, the people will tend to hate a foreign power (eg America) more than their own government.

This is because the nation's government will tend to demonize the foreigners, thus conveniently shifting all the blame away.

South Africa. That's everybody's example, I know, but it did work.

[DinoDoc]

Through the Looking Glass

Originally posted by ranskaldan
None of those above points apply to China today, just a mere 20 years later.

I forgot to mention the fact that people are sentenced to death for bringing Bibles of all things into the country.

Other than the fact that the Chinese Communist Party has decided to put away the sledgehammer when dealing out political and religious repression, I don't see any substantive improvement in many areas,

Thus, to propose that we should close down China by stopping trade, tourism, and the Olympics, is simply illogical.

You're mixing two different issues here. Trade and tourism are different from allowing them to host the Olympics or membership.

The Olympics and sitting on the WTO symbolize for the Chinese government acceptance by the international community. Something which they have not earned and nor do they deserve it at this point.