The number of Jews in the world will fall by 33% by 2050

[KrazyHorse]

Yeah, the guy does have stamina, I'll give him that.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov
Stop terror, then we'll talk

So when will you be removing your tanks?

It's you who the fool is. You've fallen for the Palestinian propoganda. You think that we're after territory, even though we for over 23 years have been agreeing to the "land for peace" formula.

Yes, that's right. I am victim to Palestinian propoganda day in and day out, and that's why I can't form the correct conclusion that it's the Arabs who are always out of line and it's the Israelis who are the perfect victim in a war with worthless Arabs. Please forgive me.

No, it's the pals who put a spin on it, and news services around the world are carrying it since they are hungry for material.

All the news services around here are pro-Israeli. You are right, there is a certain spin on it.

It's you who bull****s.

You know perfectly well, that even if jews have the same rights, there are people who don't respect those rights.

That's bull****. Seriously.
Having lived in America and Canada with Jewish friends, I know there's no anti-semitism feelings rampant. CERTAINLY less than what you'll get in the middle east.

Try living here before commenting on that.

Infact, anti-semitism is on the rise in france and germany iirc.

Do you have any evidence for that?
Not that I'd ever live in France or Germany though.

And don't forget that before Hitler, jews legally, and even in reality, had exactly the same rights and privilages in Germany. But that all changed very quickly.

Ah, yes, you're right. It is entirely likely that Canada, for example, will become a fascist empire and the government will exterminate all Jews.

We can't risk for it to change.

So instead you relocate to the middle east?

And in any case, arguing that point is moot, since just because you feel nationality is stupid, most of the world seems to disagree, since even the UN charters of all sorts acknowledge the right for every minority to define itself in the form of a country is a basic right.

It wasn't I who made the comment on nationality. Pay attention.

You do have a right to make your own country, nobody argued that. I'm just saying that when you make your own country based around a race of people, and restrict your immigration to people of that same race, it's racist. Fact is fact, spin it as you like.

Why do the Irish need a country exclusive for themselves?
Why do the Basquaes and Catalonians need one?
Why do the Kurds need one?
Why do the Taiwanese need one?
Why do the Palestinians need one?

There are two sad things.

I wasn't aware race was a requirement for immigration in those examples. Enlighten me.

A) That you are thinking in very different ways than most of the world and are apparently not aware of it.

Oh, I'm certainly aware of it.
Why would you think I'm not aware of it?

B) That you (to my knwoledge) only project your dissatisfaction at the Israeli - Jewish will for self defenition and not the rest of the nationalities. Who's racist now?

Why would I discuss other nationalities when this thread is about Israelis? You'd care call me racist over that?

I have many controversial political views. That's why I usually stay out of the political threads.

Have you heard my rant about the UK with Ireland?
Or any of my African rants?
Or even many of the southern states?

I have dissatisfaction with countries with many races. Don't pin me as racist because I don't approve of Israel.

[Bereta_Eder]

Siro has been bul****ing us all along.

here he is in a peace demo. (the one with the beard - center)

[Ramo]

Israel is a democratic country who is set to operate according to the jewish values and heritage. Therefore it's only reasonable that we ask those who intend to be citizens, to know this way of life and accept it in advance.

Jewish atheists may not share the same values as religious Jews. In fact, you don't know anything about their values in advance. Why don't you refuse to admit them into your country?

Orthodox Jews may not share the same values as more liberal Jews. Why don't you refuse one of these groups entry?

[Goingonit]

Originally posted by Ramo
Jewish atheists may not share the same values as religious Jews. In fact, you don't know anything about their values in advance. Why don't you refuse to admit them into your country?

Orthodox Jews may not share the same values as more liberal Jews. Why don't you refuse one of these groups entry?

My only answer to you is Hitler. And the Ayatollah in Iran and his buds. And Saddam & co. in Iraq. And Haider in Australia. And Henry Ford's friends in the US. And Mackenzie ing in Canada. The list goes on and on and on. we cannot risk another genocide - this is why we have Israel. I find it comforting to know that if a Neo-Nazi group should come to power here (however unlikely) I know that I do have somewhere to go. Israel is and must be a place where all Jews can go if they need to. How many more tragedies does it take until Israel becomes accepted?

That being said, the Orthodox in Israel have turned the country into a quasi-theocracy. I don't by any means approve of this, but it was done democratically, which is more than many countries can say about their theocratic policies.

Democracy is also good - and in Israel, everyone gets a say due to proportional representation. (and not only that, everyone will say large amounts about politics.)

[Asher]

So Israel exists incase that, in a remote possibility, a whacko comes into power and tries to kill all Jews. To avoid this, they took some land in the Middle East and called it Israel.

If you're trying to avoid persecution, why would you make your country in the Middle East? Are you masochists?

[Goingonit]

Originally posted by Asher
So Israel exists incase that, in a remote possibility, a whacko comes into power and tries to kill all Jews. To avoid this, they took some land in the Middle East and called it Israel.

If you're trying to avoid persecution, why would you make your country in the Middle East? Are you masochists?

Because Jews have a deep connection to the land, as has been explained in other threads - "If I forget the, o Jerusalem", "The hope of 2000 years, to be a free nation in our land", etc.. And the Brits supported it. Although there was talk of a Jewish state in Uganda for a time.

And antisemitism is not a remote possibility. The entire ME used to have a large Jewish population. Where are they now? Either or dead or in Israel.And look at Russia. The Jews were persecuted for 100s of years... until they all moved to Israel. And look at Canada's WWII government - "none is too many". And look at the Dreyfus affair. And Haider. The list goes on and on...

[Ramo]

Israel is and must be a place where all Jews can go if they need to. How many more tragedies does it take until Israel becomes accepted?

Accepting Israel is not the same thing as accepting its biggotted immigration policies. Nor is it the same thing as accepting Palestinian exploitation. Unless, of course, you consider Israel to embody one of these two principles.

My only answer to you is Hitler.

Siro claimed that Israel's immigration policies defend Jewish values. Quite evidently, that's bull****. And Hitler is not a refutation.

Israel is and must be a place where all Jews can go if they need to.

I agree with your desire to be independent of tyrants. The thing is, you, your religion, and your ethnicity are not special in this regard. You do not have the right to coerce citizens into not entering into contracts with people not of your ethnicity or religion.

That being said, the Orthodox in Israel have turned the country into a quasi-theocracy. I don't by any means approve of this, but it was done democratically, which is more than many countries can say about their theocratic policies.

Maybe states shouldn't have so much authority, in the first place.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Goingonit
Because Jews have a deep connection to the land, as has been explained in other threads - "If I forget the, o Jerusalem", "The hope of 2000 years, to be a free nation in our land", etc.. And the Brits supported it. Although there was talk of a Jewish state in Uganda for a time.

It's land. Dirt. Get over it.

And antisemitism is not a remote possibility. The entire ME used to have a large Jewish population. Where are they now? Either or dead or in Israel.And look at Russia. The Jews were persecuted for 100s of years... until they all moved to Israel. And look at Canada's WWII government - "none is too many". And look at the Dreyfus affair. And Haider. The list goes on and on...

Don't give me that.
Homosexuals have been bullied and murdered for centuries as well, do you see homosexuals going and creating their own country incase a whacko comes into power?

There's simply no way in hell a modern western government will get away with antisemitism. Really. The UN would act, NATO would act, the citizens would react. Stop it with the paranoid "we need our own country to survive!" bull****.

[Goingonit]

Good. We both accept that Israel does have a right to exist.

As to the immigration policies, they are necessary for Israel to fulfil its purpose. Without right of return, Israel is useless as a refuge for Jews. I personally do not think that Jewish values are what is being defended but rather Jewish lives. Identity doesn't do to badly either, but with identity alone there would be no reason for an Israelm or at least no good enough reason to endure all this crap.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Goingonit
Good. We both accept that Israel does have a right to exist.

As to the immigration policies, they are necessary for Israel to fulfil its purpose. Without right of return, Israel is useless as a refuge for Jews. I personally do not think that Jewish values are what is being defended but rather Jewish lives. Identity doesn't do to badly either, but with identity alone there would be no reason for an Israelm or at least no good enough reason to endure all this crap.

Some quick mental math here...
But I'm pretty sure that Israelis are more likely to die because they are Jewish than Canadians are.

[Goingonit]

Originally posted by Asher

Some quick mental math here...
But I'm pretty sure that Israelis are more likely to die because they are Jewish than Canadians are.

But the important thing is that they will never be persecuted by their own country. Never again will there be a Hitler-esque episode.

And when you get right down to it, deaths from terrorism are horrible, but small. I.e. you are far more likely to die from a car crash.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Goingonit
But the important thing is that they will never be persecuted by their own country. Never again will there be a Hitler-esque episode.

And when you get right down to it, deaths from terrorism are horrible, but small. I.e. you are far more likely to die from a car crash.

Why does it matter where the persecution comes from: from suicide bombers or from genocide?

I still stand by my statement that no modern western country will ever have that happen in it. Outside forces would simply prevent it, in the rare event some whacko tries to start.

[Goingonit]

Originally posted by Asher

Why does it matter where the persecution comes from: from suicide bombers or from genocide?

I still stand by my statement that no modern western country will ever have that happen in it. Outside forces would simply prevent it, in the rare event some whacko tries to start.

That's what Jews in Germany thought in 1932.

And we can do something about external threats much more easily.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Goingonit
That's what Jews in Germany thought in 1932.

And we can do something about external threats much more easily.

Armed with knowledge of history and the 30s in Nazi Germany, it's entirely unlikely that'll happen anymore.

Especially with things like the internet and other forms of communications which can't be censored like how Nazi Germany worked.

People are kidding themselves if they honestly believe a modern western government could ever get away with genocide in these times.