Israel will react very very very very seriously

[Natan]

Re: Both sides guilty, neither willing to admit it...

Originally posted by GePap
Both sides on this conflict are guilty of many things, thought not always the same things. Both sides are also convinced that they are the victims, the others the victimizers, and thus won't as of now, admit their guilt for the conflict. *** for Tat violence will continue endlessly since neither side really is willing to go 'all the way', regardless the counsel of extremist on both sides.

Oh, I disagree quite a bit on that last item.

I say the international community cut both sides off completely, as a method of punishing both sides fro their respective crimes. Let the moderates in both sides see that the extremists and their dreams will lead them to ruin, and maybe they will get the guts to act about it. Otherwise, there will be no resolution. The world has not done enough. Its clear that this is not a situation that will be solved by the parties- a solution should be imposed on them.

I think history shows that though you can impose a solution on one side, it's very, very hard to impose it on both. And I don't think its a good precedent to start ostracizing any country which fights a war.

Comrade Tribune: It's a lot farther away than you think.

[GePap]

Well

Natan:
The Palestinians really can't get any more violent due to their limited military capabilities. If Israel attempted to do anymore, including 'transfer' (that lovely euphamism for ethinic cleansing), all the sympathy from the world it gets, even from the US, would vanish in about a second. Remeber that the cold war is over, so besides the pro-israel lobby in the US, the reasons why the US should give a damn about Israel are slowly declining, while oil is still important.

Second, what war? You are fighitng an insurrection, for as much as Israelis want to think that its all Arafat and a bunch of goons, it is the paletinans people rising up, since they saw little if any gain from Oslo. This is a thing Israelis can't get through their heads. During Oslo, the future seemed bright for Israel- more tourism, more foregin investement, and thus economic growth, and perhaps one day, no draft and who knows, a writen constitution? The Palestininas begun with such hopes, hoping for more foreign investement and tourism and normal lives. But from 1994-1999 their economy declined, the number of settlers DOUBLED, the number of checkpoints grew. What did they gain then? The fact that they rose up in anger is no surprise, especially after how Israel reacted to the original protest.
There is no reason why the international community should just sit there while the rights of millions, both paletinian and israeli, are being violated. How long would the Israeli middle class hang on to The West bank, and specially Gaza, if comprehensive sactions were placed on israel for violating resolution 242, which the UN has every rigth to do? I think it is time the EU confronted the US about this. Even if the US balks, the EU, which is Israel's main trade partner, can place on Israel the sort of sactions placed on other rogue state. I think Israelis should be shown what the real cost of their policies are. the Palestinans have already been shown what the cost of their are. The question is, does the regular Israeli (not settler) care more about Gaza than the Palestinian living there?

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by SMAC Fanatic
Neither side can claim to be innocent and neither can claim the moral high ground, simply because there isn't any left in the Middle East.

Indeed. And I'll never understand how the participants can be so blind to this.


I wonder how many more generations will have to live thier life in a warzone, before people start to realise how meaningless it is.

[Natan]

Re: Well

Originally posted by GePap
Natan:
The Palestinians really can't get any more violent due to their limited military capabilities.

So you think that Arafat has made NO efforts to restrain the violence up to now? And have you read this thread at all, or did you forget that the Palestinians have yet to fire Kassam-2 rockets at population centers?

If Israel attempted to do anymore, including 'transfer' (that lovely euphamism for ethinic cleansing), all the sympathy from the world it gets, even from the US, would vanish in about a second.

I think there are a lot of options between the current Israeli responses and expulsion.

Remeber that the cold war is over, so besides the pro-israel lobby in the US, the reasons why the US should give a damn about Israel are slowly declining, while oil is still important.

Israel is a stable, reliable, and powerful ally - not a thing given up easily in that part of the world.

Second, what war? You

No. Wrong pronoun.

are fighitng an insurrection, for as much as Israelis want to think that its all Arafat and a bunch of goons, it is the paletinans people rising up, since they saw little if any gain from Oslo.

And so? An insurrection is always fought by a bunch of goons.

The Palestininas begun with such hopes, hoping for more foreign investement and tourism and normal lives. But from 1994-1999 their economy declined

It should have been foreseeable that living under Arafat would make it harder for them to get into Israel - international borders usually do hamper trade.

the number of settlers DOUBLED

Yes, but almost all of the increase was in the commuter suburbs of Jerusalem adjacent to the green line - Maaleh Adumim, Gush Etzion, Psagot, and a few others. But besides, is there some Palestinian righ to a Judenrein state? Should white Californians call for sanctions on New Mexico since the number of ilegal Mexican settlers on their land has increased dramatically?

the number of checkpoints grew.

Because Palestinian terrorism grew. The suicide bombings were a post-Oslo phenomenon. It took six monthes of Palestinian violence in the so-called Al-Aksa Intifada for the number of Palestinians killed since Oslo to equal the number of Israelis.

What did they gain then? The fact that they rose up in anger is no surprise, especially after how Israel reacted to the original protest.

I think it's quite surprising that such a level of violence could be maintained for a year and a half. In fact, the whole phenomenon of the suicide bombers is beyond surprising, it is shocking.

There is no reason why the international community should just sit there while the rights of millions, both paletinian and israeli, are being violated.

Yet your solution only deals with Israeli "violations."

How long would the Israeli middle class hang on to The West bank, and specially Gaza, if comprehensive sactions were placed on israel for violating resolution 242, which the UN has every rigth to do?

The idea is so hypothetical as to preclude a response.

I think it is time the EU confronted the US about this. Even if the US balks, the EU, which is Israel's main trade partner, can place on Israel the sort of sactions placed on other rogue state.

I think the US might place sanctions on the EU if that happened.

I think Israelis should be shown what the real cost of their policies are. the Palestinans have already been shown what the cost of their are. The question is, does the regular Israeli (not settler) care more about Gaza than the Palestinian living there?

That is not the question. The borders which divides Ale Sinai from Tel-aviv, beit Hanun from Sderot, Gush etzion from Jerusalem and Jenin from Umm Al-Fahm are completely artificial and meaningless. As one Palestinian negotiator told his Israeli counterpart in the 1990s "It is like Solomon's test with the two mothers - you are willing to cut the baby in half; you are not the true mother." This is not about the West Bank, this is not about Gaza, this is not about Israel, this is about all of them put together.

[Zoid]

Originally posted by Eli
and Israel uses fighter jets against innocent bricks and walls.

Bull****!

Hussein 'Abayat, a local leader of the tanzimat, was extrajudicially executed in Beit Sahur in the West Bank by a shell launched from an Israeli helicopter gunship which killed two women standing near his van and injured nine others. An IDF spokesperson admitted that Hussein 'Abayat had been targeted, allegedly because he was going to launch an attack on Gilo settlement.

Israeli security services killed at least 300 and wounded more than 10,000 Palestinians. The majority of those killed and wounded were demonstrators throwing stones or using slings; at least 100 of those killed were children under 18. The Israeli police, border police, special patrol force and IDF used excessive lethal force, firing rubber-coated metal bullets and live ammunition including high-velocity bullets at demonstrators. Some Palestinians were deliberately targeted and extrajudicially executed. The Israeli airforce and the navy used heavy weaponry, including helicopter gunships, tanks and naval vessels, to shell randomly Palestinian areas from where armed Palestinians had opened fire. They also used heavy weaponry to conduct punitive raids against PA facilities.

Taken fromAmnesty International Annual report 2001

[Eli]

Isnt this exactly what I said?

While they add their own biased opinions ("randomly shelling...", there is no way for them to know) they said exactly what I said. The vast majority of the Pals were killed in clashes with Israeli troops. So even Amnesty International refutes your demagogic comparisons of stone throwers vs fighter jets.

As for this specific assasination, Israel semi-admitted that it was a wrong target. Concerning the other ones, it's a very simple choice for every Israeli.
Option one : Let the ticking bomb enter Israel and then suffer tens of casualties.
Option two : Send my brother/father/friend to risk his life to arrest a guy with an explosive belt on himself in the middle of a Palestinian city.
Option three : Couple of missiles and he's dead. No casualties for our forces, and most of the time there are no innocent Pal casualties.

[Goingonit]

Re: Well

Originally posted by GePap
Second, what war? You are fighitng an insurrection, for as much as Israelis want to think that its all Arafat and a bunch of goons, it is the paletinans people rising up, since they saw little if any gain from Oslo. This is a thing Israelis can't get through their heads.

Because it's not true. The first intifada was a popular uprising, but this new one is just a political manuever. Judgin by the reaction of people like you, it seems to be successful.

[Natan]

Originally posted by Kamrat X


Bull****!

Read closely: They're only saying two things:
1) That Israel kills people who are involved in plotting attacks against it. Pretty much every government involved in an armed conflict does this - including the United States and also Arab countries like Algeria.
2) That Israel used tanks and naval forces to relieve troops in firefights (fired at sources of gunfire, as AI puts it) which is something which every army is expected to do.

[Zoid]

Originally posted by Natan

Interesting to see how the Aryan master race's obsession with the Jews continues.

As long as the zionist government continues it´s genocidal politics against the palestinians I see no reason to quit my "jewish obsession"

You know, I think that many more than ten times more Serbs than Americans died in the Kosovo war, yet I don't think there's any comparison to Nazis.

It´s ironic that a people like the jews, who has been so persecuted during the last 2000 years, acts no better than their persecutors against the palestinians. Hence the comparison to the nazis. Even if the American genocide is equally despicable, or the genocide in Rwanda or Pol Pot, etc. etc.

You'd like to face suicide bombers?

Would you like to face rubber-coated metal bullets, live ammunition including high-velocity bullets, heavy weaponry, including helicopter gunships, tanks and naval vessels?

You left out tens of thousands of gunmen, 82mm mortars, RPGs, and now artillery pieces.

Yeah, like the palestinians have an equal amount of military material to the Israelis

[Natan]

As long as the zionist government continues it´s genocidal politics

Excuse me? How is Israel attempting to exterminate the Palestinians? The idea is either an abuse of the English language or a flat out blatant lie.

against the palestinians I see no reason to quit my "jewish obsession"

And until the Palestinians stop their attempts to kill as many Jews as possible, Israel is going to stay on the West Bank to make sure they don't succeeed.

It´s ironic that a people like the jews, who has been so persecuted during the last 2000 years, acts no better than their persecutors

"their persecutors" is a very broad term with the Jews. Care to clarify?

against the palestinians. Hence the comparison to the nazis. Even if the American genocide is equally despicable, or the genocide in Rwanda or Pol Pot, etc. etc.

In case you may have noticed, Israel has killed about 1000 Palestinians, mostly in armed clashes, otherwise known as "war." If a "genocide" occurs every time one thousand people die in a war, I think that genocide is a term which carries no wait.

Would you like to face rubber-coated metal bullets, live ammunition including high-velocity bullets, heavy weaponry, including helicopter gunships, tanks and naval vessels?

No, but were I a Palestinian I could avoid this by not going out to fight the IDF, whereas were I an Israeli, Fatah, Hamas, etc. would be attepting to kill me at all times and in all places. But actually, I'd rather take my chances with rubber bullets than suicide bombers.

Yeah, like the palestinians have an equal amount of military material to the Israelis

You know, the Allies had a lot more military material than the Germans in april of 1945, but I don't think that says anything about which side is moral. Israel has a better military, yes. And the US has a better military than the Taliban, and better than the Khmer Rouge or the Interahamwe had either.

[GePap]

Re: Re: Well

Originally posted by Natan

So you think that Arafat has made NO efforts to restrain the violence up to now? And have you read this thread at all, or did you forget that the Palestinians have yet to fire Kassam-2 rockets at population centers?

And how would that be any more deadly than a suicide bomber?

I think there are a lot of options between the current Israeli responses and expulsion.

Like invading all of PA territory and going after the folk yourself? Fine, go ahead, but that doesn't solve the political problems underlaying this.

Israel is a stable, reliable, and powerful ally - not a thing given up easily in that part of the world.

hmmm. a state with five governments in 7 years, violating various international agreements, commonly attacking its neighbors, whom view it righty as a rogue state- and with no resources in it? Its power is based on US money as much as any of its own initiative. Who commonly spies on the US more than any other neighbor, who sell weapons to US competitors, like China, so forth and so on. In the future, demographic and economic trends in the US and MIddle east both bode badly for Israel and US-Israel relations.

And so? An insurrection is always fought by a bunch of goons.

So Ben Gurion was a goon? So the leaders of the Ghetto Uprising in Warsaw were goons, with no popular support? Funny that they missed that in the made for TV movie that just came out....

It should have been foreseeable that living under Arafat would make it harder for them to get into Israel - international borders usually do hamper trade.

What inteernational borders? The PA is not yet a state- thats why Israeli leaders speak of a Palestinian stae in the future, not now.

Yes, but almost all of the increase was in the commuter suburbs of Jerusalem adjacent to the green line - Maaleh Adumim, Gush Etzion, Psagot, and a few others. But besides, is there some Palestinian righ to a Judenrein state? Should white Californians call for sanctions on New Mexico since the number of ilegal Mexican settlers on their land has increased dramatically?

this is certainly the weakest argument of all! First of all, all the settlements, from gaza to the Jordan valley, doubled, not just the suburbs of Jerusalem. Does Israel claim the right to a state free of Palestinian refugees? YES! It is really silly to see Israelis argue about why Palestinans should let settlers , who are there illegally, stay because they ahve homes and so forth, but whay they have every right to keep refuggees, who under international law have the right to return , out. I already said that I think the settlers should be given the choice to stay, but as Palestinian citizens, following Palestinian laws, not as Israeli Citizens in israeli soil, whioch is what the settler want. Please know your side before arguing! As for California, both it and NM are part of the US, which does control immigration, and the US does not want illegal immigrants and does move to expel them. If your going to use US as an example , use one that benefits you, not hurts you.

Because Palestinian terrorism grew. The suicide bombings were a post-Oslo phenomenon. It took six monthes of Palestinian violence in the so-called Al-Aksa Intifada for the number of Palestinians killed since Oslo to equal the number of Israelis.

First, you are right that suicide bombers begun after Oslo, but completely wrong on your body count. The deadliet sucide bombings, in '96, killed about 140 people, with all other attacks being smaller. In 6 months, well over 400 Palestinians were dead, and that's not counting all the Palestinians who dies in the outbrakes of violence from 94-96, and I would include the Goldstien massacre, which was a settler act of terrorism. BUt counting bodies is macabre and worthless. Why could peace continue after the '96 bombings but not after the disco bombing? What changed? Perhaps attitudes hardened, but the underlying political problems remain unchanged.

I think it's quite surprising that such a level of violence could be maintained for a year and a half. In fact, the whole phenomenon of the suicide bombers is beyond surprising, it is shocking.

After Rwanda, nothing is shocking. Besides, the bombings begun 7 yeaqrs ago, so they hardly have shock value anymore.

Yet your solution only deals with Israeli "violations."

Still part of this, we Israelis are the only victims bullcrap! I said, cut both sides off. Isarel is in violation of international law- the international community has every right to punish Israel for it.

I think the US might place sanctions on the EU if that happened.

Sorry, but the US is not foolish enough to risk its relations with the EU, and NATO, for Israel. In the long term, our relations with 300 million people with a combined economy equal to that of the US is greater than the US relation with a nation of 6 million people with an economy 1/50 that of the US at best, a lot fo which comes from the US anyway.

That is not the question. The borders which divides Ale Sinai from Tel-aviv, beit Hanun from Sderot, Gush etzion from Jerusalem and Jenin from Umm Al-Fahm are completely artificial and meaningless. As one Palestinian negotiator told his Israeli counterpart in the 1990s "It is like Solomon's test with the two mothers - you are willing to cut the baby in half; you are not the true mother." This is not about the West Bank, this is not about Gaza, this is not about Israel, this is about all of them put together.

Great Point! Why then was partition a worthwhile offer back in 1947? Why then do Israelis refuse the refugees back, why then do the Paletinians what their own state? This is afight about nationalism, an idea I have already stated is crap. Jewish-Arab relationss were far better than jewish-chirstian relations until nationalism came about, on both sides. We have to semetic peoples fighting each other for common ground. It is senseless and stupid. But we are here now, at this stupid point, so all we can do, is follow the rules and the laws that exist. that is all I am calling for.

[Sirotnikov]

Re: Well

Eli was right in correcting me.

It appears we decided to go for a vast military action.

Originally posted by GePap
The Palestinians really can't get any more violent due to their limited military capabilities.

That nice Karin-A incident shows us that they can.

If Israel attempted to do anymore, including 'transfer' (that lovely euphamism for ethinic cleansing), all the sympathy from the world it gets, even from the US, would vanish in about a second.

Israel might deport Arafat & friends, but not general people.

Remeber that the cold war is over, so besides the pro-israel lobby in the US, the reasons why the US should give a damn about Israel are slowly declining, while oil is still important.

In contrair.
Israel is a) very loyal to america and reliable b) stable c) has excellent "information services" about the arab world.

Second, what war? You are fighitng an insurrection, for as much as Israelis want to think that its all Arafat and a bunch of goons, it is the paletinans people rising up, since they saw little if any gain from Oslo.

And you are deciding this based on what intelligence information that Israel failed to possess?

Even palestinian ministers admitted aloud that the Intifadah was planned by Arafat and was commanded by him, and not a natural roll of events.

But from 1994-1999 their economy declined

where did you get that form?
They had more tourists than ever, and Israel built roads, universities and stuff for them.
They also began freely importing cheap products into Israel, to a point in which a great deal of the vegetable and fruit market was palestinian.

the number of settlers DOUBLED

?
I know it grew, but I'd like a source for that.

the number of checkpoints grew. What did they gain then?

The number of A territories which aren't under Israeli control grew. They got more land free of checkpoints.

The fact that they rose up in anger is no surprise, especially after how Israel reacted to the original protest.

You have an extremely selective memory.
Not only do you only remember the evil things that happenned in palestine, you also seem to forget Barak who gave them 11% more land, and then went on to try and achieve a settlement even for the price of his chair.

Hell, Barak continued negociations during the intifadah.

There is no reason why the international community should just sit there while the rights of millions, both paletinian and israeli, are being violated.

And I'm sure the international community knows exactly what to do, given it's great help in lebanon, serbia and a dozen african states.

How long would the Israeli middle class hang on to The West bank, and specially Gaza, if comprehensive sactions were placed on israel for violating resolution 242, which the UN has every rigth to do?

You're talking nonsense.

Israel is loosing money and resource on the settlements. They aren't even idological anymore, but rather "cards" for the land ofr peace formula.

I think it is time the EU confronted the US about this.

I agree. It's time for the french and italian to surrender again.

Even if the US balks, the EU, which is Israel's main trade partner, can place on Israel the sort of sactions placed on other rogue state.

Fine.
I wonder what Israeli programmers will think about next when the design Pentium 5.

I think Israelis should be shown what the real cost of their policies are. the Palestinans have already been shown what the cost of their are.

The palestinians have been shown that no one ****ing cares about them, including you. If you cared, you'd get rid of tyrants that push kids to the front lines with commercials on public TV calling kids to join terrorists in heaven. If you cared, you'd make sure the money the EU gives goes to food and medicine, and not more Helicopters for Arafat or more missiles for the Hamas.

The question is, does the regular Israeli (not settler) care more about Gaza than the Palestinian living there?

The regular Israeli cares about his personal safety more than about Gaza or the palestinian living there, which is how things should be.

This whole situation exists because Arafat promotes violence to put pressure on Israel. No Arafat = No Terror supporting regime = No need for Israeli retaliation = No suffering palestinians.

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by Osweld

Neither side can claim to be innocent and neither can claim the moral high ground, simply because there isn't any left in the Middle East.

Indeed. And I'll never understand how the participants can be so blind to this.
...

And I can't understand how idiots, who can't spot a terrorist when he send planes on them, and live on the other side of the world in their liberalist pacifist haven, can claim the moral high ground over anyone else.

[Zoid]

Originally posted by Eli
So even Amnesty International refutes your demagogic comparisons of stone throwers vs fighter jets.

Just for the record, the "demagogic comparison" is all in your head, all I said was:

The palestinians have suicide bombers and stone throwing kids. Israel has tanks and fighter jets.

It was you who interpreted this as suicide bombers vs tanks and stone throwing kids vs fighter jets

As for this specific assasination, Israel semi-admitted that it was a wrong target. Concerning the other ones, it's a very simple choice for every Israeli.
Option one : Let the ticking bomb enter Israel and then suffer tens of casualties.
Option two : Send my brother/father/friend to risk his life to arrest a guy with an explosive belt on himself in the middle of a Palestinian city.
Option three : Couple of missiles and he's dead. No casualties for our forces, and most of the time there are no innocent Pal casualties.

Another option: A bullet in the head for each member of the Israeli cabinet and militant settlers.

[Goingonit]

Originally posted by Kamrat X
Another option: A bullet in the head for each member of the Israeli cabinet and militant settlers.

Well, if that was ment as a joke, you have an awful sense of humor. If it was meant seriously, let me remind you that Arafat was viewed by everyone as a terrorist, until Israel took the West Bank and Gaza. Sharon might be hawkish, but he isn't a terrorist. Not to mention the elected/nonelected thing, and the fact that the settlers, while they are arguably taking land, are not actually attacking anybody.