Israel will react very very very very seriously

[Sirotnikov]

Hussein 'Abayat, a local leader of the tanzimat, was extrajudicially executed in Beit Sahur in the West Bank by a shell launched from an Israeli helicopter gunship which killed two women standing near his van and injured nine others. An IDF spokesperson admitted that Hussein 'Abayat had been targeted, allegedly because he was going to launch an attack on Gilo settlement.

The Tanzim armed militia took responsibility for many shooting terracts and among them shooting on Gilo. I would rather trust Israeli intelligence on him planning an attack than rely on Amnesty's neutral speculations.

Furthermore, he was not extrajudicially executed but rather eliminated like combatants are during a due process of armed conflict.
Furthermore, he was a combatant employing terror tactics, namely targeting innocent civilians, which made his elimination ever more urgent.

Israeli security services killed at least 300 and wounded more than 10,000 Palestinians. The majority of those killed and wounded were demonstrators throwing stones or using slings; at least 100 of those killed were children under 18.

Missing information:
"demonstrators" were actually rioters, as they threw stones and used slings against innocent people in Israeli territory, or against Israeli security forces who tried to contain the riot.

Israeli security forces aimed at those rioters possessing molotovs and rifles who took cover begin the stone throwers.

The Israeli police, border police, special patrol force and IDF used excessive lethal force, firing rubber-coated metal bullets and live ammunition including high-velocity bullets at demonstrators.

I don't get the high-velocity bullets part. Are there slower bullets?

Furthermore, the fire was not, as we are lead to believe "random" and "generally aimed" but rather aimed at armed militia men. Unfortunately, sometimes they missed.

However, it's important to stress the ease, in which an armed gun-man can lay down his gun and instantly become "an innocent demonstrator" for the cameras and observers.

Some Palestinians were deliberately targeted and extrajudicially executed.

I would guess it were those using hot-weapons and planning the attacks.
Seeing how they behaved like combatants in most means (other than following law prohibiting the targeting of civilians) it is only fair that they were treated appropriately.

The Israeli airforce and the navy used heavy weaponry, including helicopter gunships, tanks and naval vessels, to shell randomly Palestinian areas from where armed Palestinians had opened fire.

Now that's a complete misrepresentation.
How come the places are "random" if it is mentioned those are specific places from which fire had been opened?

They also used heavy weaponry to conduct punitive raids against PA facilities.

Which were and are used as a basis for planning of military and terror operations against Israel, and therefore become legtimate military targets.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Goingonit
Sharon might be hawkish, but he isn't a terrorist.

Actually, in the '40s and '50s, he was a terrorist. Also, as he currently wages terror on the Palestinian people in order to try and force a settlement, he is still a terrorist.

[m_m_x]

Kamrat X-
ur just a racist kid that has nothing to do with his life,
sitting at home playing with himself i guess.....
WHO THE F#^$#@# are u calling a master race and all this kind of Nazi bull****??huh???
have u ever been in Israel??have u ever been in PA territory????
what gives u the right to talk this way??we are fighting here against bunch of barbarians,they are killing us like fly's,killing there own people,and u probably have forgot that former p.m barrack gave them everything,they said no(u can ask Clinton if u cant believe a Jew)-we want the JEWISH people out of here,and better yet dead,and that's what they are doing since then. and another thing there was never a Palestine state people or what so ever,we had to fight with all Arab nations back in 67 (Iraq, Egypt,Syria,Jordan,Lebanon...and Russian fighters to)and we won ,yes the Jewish people won I know some people cant accept it but we WON!!and conquer Gaza from Egypt,west bank from Jordan.
nazis have killed 6 millions of our people,u know why??not because we suicide bombed in Berlin or other European towns,not because we lunched rocket attacks at cities,not because we threw stones at them,not because we shot them at streets...not because we taught our kids that Germans are "pigs,son of monkeys,heretics that need to be slaughter" you know why?because we were Jews..
so where is the similarity in Israel situation today with pa and the Nazi acts in ww2??

im proud to be a jew,a zionist,and an israeli
i will fight to death with whom attacks my country my home and my people,no matter where is he from.

you are pissing me off!!go learn some history!

[Zoid]

Originally posted by Goingonit


Well, if that was ment as a joke, you have an awful sense of humor. If it was meant seriously, let me remind you that Arafat was viewed by everyone as a terrorist, until Israel took the West Bank and Gaza. Sharon might be hawkish, but he isn't a terrorist. Not to mention the elected/nonelected thing, and the fact that the settlers, while they are arguably taking land, are not actually attacking anybody.

Well, I am known for my awful sense of humor, but it would solve a lot of problems though

Sharon not a terrorist? And what do you call the attacks on the refugee camps Sabra and Shatila in 1982? He ordered them, and he has yet to pay for this...

And the settlers are attacking palestinians,

Israeli settler attacks on Palestinians in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip have been steadily increasing in the past few weeks. These settlers have generally acted with impunity, as the Israeli military and court system historically have been reluctant to arrest, try, and punish settlers for violence they commit against Palestinian civilians. As a result, settlers are virtually free to carry out intimidation, assaults against people and property, and even murder against the Palestinian population.

From the "Reports on settler violence" section of The alternative information center

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by Kamrat X
Just for the record, the "demagogic comparison" is all in your head, all I said was:

It was you who interpreted this as suicide bombers vs tanks and stone throwing kids vs fighter jets

gee....
Let's review what you said.

Israel fights Palestine.
Israel has jets and tanks.
Palestine has stone throwing kids.

If that's not a demagogical comparison i don't know what is.

Just because you aren't spelling it out doesn't mean you're not implying it.

Another option: A bullet in the head for each member of the Israeli cabinet and militant settlers.

A) You have yet to prove Israeli cabinet ministers are responsible for the conflict, contrary to out given evidence of arafat starting the whole thing.
B) I dare you to bring 3 examples of "militant" settlers.
C) And that would solve the problem of palestinian terrorists and militants who wish to destroy Israel in what way?

[JohnT]

Originally posted by Kamrat X
Another option: A bullet in the head for each member of the Israeli cabinet and militant settlers.

Damn, you commies are all the same. You'd think you'd learn, but nooooo. And yet y'all wonder why we don't desire to share the nightmare?

[Zoid]

Originally posted by m_m_x
Kamrat X-
ur just a racist kid that has nothing to do with his life,
sitting at home playing with himself i guess.....
WHO THE F#^$#@# are u calling a master race and all this kind of Nazi bull****??huh???
have u ever been in Israel??have u ever been in PA territory????
what gives u the right to talk this way??we are fighting here against bunch of barbarians,they are killing us like fly's,killing there own people,and u probably have forgot that former p.m barrack gave them everything,they said no(u can ask Clinton if u cant believe a Jew)-we want the JEWISH people out of here,and better yet dead,and that's what they are doing since then. and another thing there was never a Palestine state people or what so ever,we had to fight with all Arab nations back in 67 (Iraq, Egypt,Syria,Jordan,Lebanon...and Russian fighters to)and we won ,yes the Jewish people won I know some people cant accept it but we WON!!and conquer Gaza from Egypt,west bank from Jordan.
nazis have killed 6 millions of our people,u know why??not because we suicide bombed in Berlin or other European towns,not because we lunched rocket attacks at cities,not because we threw stones at them,not because we shot them at streets...not because we taught our kids that Germans are "pigs,son of monkeys,heretics that need to be slaughter" you know why?because we were Jews..
so where is the similarity in Israel situation today with pa and the Nazi acts in ww2??

im proud to be a jew,a zionist,and an israeli
i will fight to death with whom attacks my country my home and my people,no matter where is he from.

you are pissing me off!!go learn some history!

Please, learn to type if you would like people to read what write, and the less said about your use of the english language the better... Now, bugger off you little runt

[Natan]

Originally posted by GePap
And how would that be any more deadly than a suicide bomber?

It knocks down buildings, is less predictable and preventable, and more importantly, doesn't require people willing to be martyrs.

Like invading all of PA territory and going after the folk yourself?

Exactly, except for the pronoun.

Fine, go ahead, but that doesn't solve the political problems underlaying this.

The problem is primarily a military one.

hmmm. a state with five governments in 7 years

All Democratically elected. Already doing much better than its neighbors.

violating various international agreements

Just like its neighbors and just like the US. International agreements were made to be broken.

commonly attacking its neighbors, whom view it righty as a rogue state

Um, what neighbors has it attacked? The PA isn't even an independent state.

- and with no resources in it? Its power is based on US money as much as any of its own initiative.

A good economy is much better than natural resources. Israel has a highly educated population and a modern economy with a strong Internet/technology sector. Of course US military and economic aid help, but the same is true of Jordan, Egypt, and the PA.

who sell weapons to US competitors, like China

What weapons were sold to China? In case you stopped paying attention to the region years ago, the Phalcon deal was cancelled.

In the future, demographic and economic trends in the US and MIddle east both bode badly for Israel and US-Israel relations.

We'll see.

So Ben Gurion was a goon? So the leaders of the Ghetto Uprising in Warsaw were goons, with no popular support? Funny that they missed that in the made for TV movie that just came out....

Obviously goon is a pejorative, but the point is that armed conflicts are fought by armed men (and occasionally armed women) not by whole civillian populations.

What inteernational borders? The PA is not yet a state- thats why Israeli leaders speak of a Palestinian stae in the future, not now.

Would you agree that it's a boundary of jurisdiction, that the Israeli legal system applies on one side of the board and another legal system on the other? I think it was pretty foreseeable that this sort of arrangement, if you prefer, you can call it autonomy, would hamper trade. In fact, as I recall one of the main Palestinian complaints was that their economy was dominated by Israel.

this is certainly the weakest argument of all! First of all, all the settlements, from gaza to the Jordan valley, doubled, not just the suburbs of Jerusalem.

So are you going to provide the statistics to show that every settlement's population doubled? Yes many of them did grow, but even so, this is at worst ilegal immigration - hardly a grounds for the murder of innocents.

Does Israel claim the right to a state free of Palestinian refugees? YES!

I think we both know that the settlers were all going to leave the Palestinian areas in the event of a peace agreement. So much was agreed upon at Camp David.

It is really silly to see Israelis argue about why Palestinans should let settlers , who are there illegally, stay because they ahve homes and so forth, but whay they have every right to keep refuggees, who under international law have the right to return , out.

Possession is nine tenthes of the law. If you live in a house, I think you have the right to stay there. I think this applies equally to an Israeli who lives in a house in Jaffa which was owned by a Palestinian in 1947 as it does to a Palestinian who owns a house in East Jerusalem. The refugee and the settler are opposites.

I already said that I think the settlers should be given the choice to stay, but as Palestinian citizens, following Palestinian laws, not as Israeli Citizens in israeli soil, whioch is what the settler want. Please know your side before arguing!

I'd agree to that for 90% of the settlements.

As for California, both it and NM are part of the US, which does control immigration, and the US does not want illegal immigrants and does move to expel them. If your going to use US as an example , use one that benefits you, not hurts you.

Sorry, I meant Mexico proper, not New Mexico.
If any Israelis move into Area A, the PA will expel them, and they'll actually face a fine from the Israeli justice system. But the point here with the analogy to the US is that you can't just kill immigrants, as the Palestinians seem to think they can do.

First, you are right that suicide bombers begun after Oslo, but completely wrong on your body count. The deadliet sucide bombings, in '96, killed about 140 people, with all other attacks being smaller. In 6 months, well over 400 Palestinians were dead, and that's not counting all the Palestinians who dies in the outbrakes of violence from 94-96, and I would include the Goldstien massacre, which was a settler act of terrorism.

Yes, but there were numerous other smaller suicide bombings. I might as well say that the Palestinian death toll couldn't have been higher than the Israeli one since suicide bombers killed 140 Israelis in a day when never even 20 Palestinians were killed in one day. Hundreds of Israelis were killed in the bombings, which took place over a period of years.

BUt counting bodies is macabre and worthless.

Good, I'm glad you agree. I only pointed out the number of bodies to demonstrate the severity of the terrorism problem.

Why could peace continue after the '96 bombings but not after the disco bombing? What changed?

Israelis realized that the Palestinian political leadership had taken a decision to stand with the terrorists.

After Rwanda, nothing is shocking.

That people could kill their neighbors en masse for a trifle was something we always knew. That they'd kill themselves though is news.

Besides, the bombings begun 7 yeaqrs ago, so they hardly have shock value anymore.

My point is that there is something more than just Palestinian disgust for their new Jewish neighbors motivating them to blow themselves up. There is an infrastructure of incitement to terrorism which assures Palestinian men that if they blow themselves up to kill Jewish teenagers, they are holy and blessed martyrs both to Islam and to the Palestinian people who will be remembered and celeberated as role models for the young, and that their families will recieve special stipends.

Still part of this, we Israelis are the only victims bullcrap! I said, cut both sides off. Isarel is in violation of international law- the international community has every right to punish Israel for it.

You did not mention any sanctions on the Palesitnian Authority, so I assumed you did not intend to have them put in place.

Sorry, but the US is not foolish enough to risk its relations with the EU, and NATO, for Israel. In the long term, our relations with 300 million people with a combined economy equal to that of the US is greater than the US relation with a nation of 6 million people with an economy 1/50 that of the US at best, a lot fo which comes from the US anyway.

I think the US does not like the precedent of the EU messing with our allies. But besides, the EU isn't going to do such a thing anyway.

Great Point! Why then was partition a worthwhile offer back in 1947?

A Partition is worthwhile, but THE partition isn't - that is, there is a point in saying that the two sides each deserve separate states - but there is no sense in saying that the line which Jordanian forces were able to hold in 1949 represents the boundaries of a new and different state more than fifty years later. We might as well return

Why then do Israelis refuse the refugees back, why then do the Paletinians what their own state? This is afight about nationalism, an idea I have already stated is crap. Jewish-Arab relationss were far better than jewish-chirstian relations until nationalism came about, on both sides.

True, although I hope you do know that there is some difference between Arab and Muslim.

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov

And I can't understand how idiots, who can't spot a terrorist when he send planes on them

live on the other side of the world

The other side of the world from where? What I've said on this subject applies to everywhere, not just the mid-east.

in their liberalist pacifist haven

can claim the moral high ground over anyone else.

I haven't tried to claim the moral high ground over anyone - I haven't even taken a side in the conflict.

[m_m_x]

thats all?? nothing to say??
my english is the topic here?
well ill say it in hebrew "ATA NATSI MASRIAK"
get it?

[chequita guevara]

Why why why do I even look in these threads?

If Israel really wanted peace, there would be peace.

[JohnT]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov

And I can't understand how idiots, who can't spot a terrorist when he send planes on them, and live on the other side of the world in their liberalist pacifist haven, can claim the moral high ground over anyone else.

Talk about biting the hand that feeds you!

Well, perhaps we "liberalist pacifist(?) idiots" really oughtta stop selling you military equipment, hmmmm? I'd like to see how y'all stand up with just Israeli-built military equipment to support you.

[Zoid]

Originally posted by m_m_x
thats all?? nothing to say??
my english is the topic here?
well ill say it in hebrew "ATA NATSI MASRIAK"
get it?

I have a policy of not talking to rabid zionists, especially when they´re foaming at the mouth. Sorry...

[Natan]

Originally posted by Kamrat X
Sharon not a terrorist? And what do you call the attacks on the refugee camps Sabra and Shatila in 1982?

I call them a massacre by Christian phalangists allied with Israel. Also, I should note here that somehow, the same "International Community"(europe+Arab states?) which was so rightly outraged by the massacre didn't even notice when Muslim militiamen attacked the exact same camps killing many more people a year later.

He ordered them, and he has yet to pay for this...

He had them sweep the area for terrorists, but nothing more - IIRC a judge ruled to this effect in a libel suit against Time magazine in the US.

And the settlers are attacking palestinians,

From the "Reports on settler violence" section of The alternative information center

Wow, a biased source which provides no actual facts! I'm so impressed! Yes, about 10 Palestinians have been killed by gunmen who were probbly Israeli settlers - but that's about 5% of the number of Israelis killed by Palestinians - so maybe I should state my solution to the problem as a "a bullet in the head for every militant Palestinian?" Somehow, you're all in favor of genocide when its against Jews.

[JohnT]

Originally posted by Natan
Somehow, you're all in favor of genocide when its against Jews.

Remember his ideological affiliation, Natan. It's a good thing that Israel isn't populated by Ukranian farmers or else they'd be really screwed.