Israel will react very very very very seriously

[Sceptor107]

Originally posted by Comrade Tribune
Having Israel on your side is a major handicap that will reduce your chances against the rest of the world considerably.

and the israeli armed forces are the second best in the world (best conscription), they could liberate damascus, baghdad, and tehran easly. i think you understate them. if it werent for the calls for restraint, they would have gone there long ago in 73, but the soviets. didnt want to be embarrassed about there crappy military technology. well they did come with 15 miles of damascus and could see cairo.

[Bereta_Eder]

A coalition of the European Union, Russia and China are about to nuke the whole of the US.

Watcha gonna do about it?

[Comrade Tribune]

Btw, let´s analyze this in civ terms: This world has one super continent -Eurasia- and a few islands, one of them habit of the culturally insignificant, yet unruly and troublesome American civilization.

This is easy: We must just throw the Americans out of Eurasia, and we are set.

[Natan]

Originally posted by Comrade Tribune
Dues are not foreign aid. If you want to stay a member of a club, you have to pay your dues.

I thought you just finished telling me that it was unconstitutional for the US government to send money to foriegn entities?

If the UN had any guts, they would kick you out.

The idea of that as some sort of sanction against the US is so absurd that I assume you are hoping we die laughing at the spectacle of the hollow shell of an Americanless UN?


Paiktis: Four words: Star Wars Missile Defense.

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by Natan
Paiktis: Four words: Star Wars Missile Defense.

Natan: 16 words

Some will get through and that's enough meanwhile you can't nuke the whole world in time

[Comrade Tribune]

No nuking needed, Paiktis; my masterplan is better: See above.

Without bases in Eurasia, the US would speedily be reduced economically and politically to its natural importance in the order of things, which is smallish. A US reduced to the political influence it had in 1850 is something I could live with.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Natan
Although maybe if Israelis really wanted Chegitz not to waste his time on Apolyton, he wouldn't waste his time on Apolyton.

You doubt their ability to keep me from Apolyton?!? Many is the time when Siro and Eli and Dalgetti have distracted on me in IQC or invited me to a game of Age of Empires (well, only once, because my PC kept crashing) and kept me from my beloved Apolyton. Not to say that I mind this, but they have the power!

[Goingonit]

Originally posted by Comrade Tribune
Btw, let´s analyze this in civ terms: This world has one super continent -Eurasia- and a few islands, one of them habit of the culturally insignificant, yet unruly and troublesome American civilization.

This is easy: We must just throw the Americans out of Eurasia, and we are set.

Have you ever played America in Civ on the world map? They are hugely important naturally!

[Comrade Tribune]

Originally posted by Goingonit
They are hugely important naturally!

Not if they are contained properly.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Natan

It knocks down buildings, is less predictable and preventable, and more importantly, doesn't require people willing to be martyrs.

So basically, the Palestinians would be ag9ining the same sort of military ability in a minor way that israel has now- you keep saying it is a war, so how can you then deny your 'enemy' the same capabilities? Hobbes, no lover of freedom, stated that the one right no man can be denied is the right of self-defense, and this applies to both sides.

The problem is primarily a military one.

This is the fundamental mistake Israelis make, the simple, basic one. I won't quote clautzwitz cause we all know what he said, but what he said was right- Do supporters of israel ever ask how we got to this point? Its easy to continue to deny that this is the Palestinian people rising up, since that would force Israel to ask why, not just to call Arafat a murderer. I say, why not let the US do an Afghanistan on the West bank and Gaza, bomb, invade, root out the Terrorists, and then... form a democratic, viable Palestinina state on Palestinian land, ie, 100% of the Occupied territories? Could Sharron's government ever allow that? I mean, hey, it would solve the military problem, no?

All Democratically elected. Already doing much better than its neighbors.

cause you do see all that terror in jordan, right?

Just like its neighbors and just like the US. International agreements were made to be broken.

Is that so? So why have sanctions on Iraq, since all it is doing is breaking international agreements. Why are NK and Iran an 'axis of evil' as you believe, since all they are doing is breaking international agreements? Why was Karine A such a bad thing, if all the PA was doing was breaking international agreements?
Why should the Arabs ahve accepted the 1947 partition, if that was only an INTERNATIONAL AGREEMENT!!? International agreements were not made to be broken. Sorry, but only ignorant or immoral people belive that Laws were made to be broken.

Um, what neighbors has it attacked? The PA isn't even an independent state.

Lebanon in 1982, Iraq in 1981. It bombed Tunisia in 1986. In 1956 it invaded Egypt in cahoots with france and Great britian, and was really hoping at that time for an excuse to invade Jordan too. Israel has attacked its neighbors land more than the other way around.


A good economy is much better than natural resources. Israel has a highly educated population and a modern economy with a strong Internet/technology sector. Of course US military and economic aid help, but the same is true of Jordan, Egypt, and the PA.

What weapons were sold to China? In case you stopped paying attention to the region years ago, the Phalcon deal was cancelled.

We'll see.

Obviously goon is a pejorative, but the point is that armed conflicts are fought by armed men (and occasionally armed women) not by whole civillian populations.

Would you agree that it's a boundary of jurisdiction, that the Israeli legal system applies on one side of the board and another legal system on the other? I think it was pretty foreseeable that this sort of arrangement, if you prefer, you can call it autonomy, would hamper trade. In fact, as I recall one of the main Palestinian complaints was that their economy was dominated by Israel.

So are you going to provide the statistics to show that every settlement's population doubled? Yes many of them did grow, but even so, this is at worst ilegal immigration - hardly a grounds for the murder of innocents.

I, unlike some of the others here, have never called what palestinian extremist do anything other than murder, but a crime is a crime, and the crimes of others do not absolve one of their crimes, never will, NEVER.

I think we both know that the settlers were all going to leave the Palestinian areas in the event of a peace agreement. So much was agreed upon at Camp David.

We all know that we don't know anything that really happened since we were not there. Besides, the settlers are armed (by israel) and fanatical.Any real concessions, that forced settlers out, would start a civil war in israel. The fanatics killed one Israeli prime minister already, they probably have no qualmss killing more.

Possession is nine tenthes of the law. If you live in a house, I think you have the right to stay there. I think this applies equally to an Israeli who lives in a house in Jaffa which was owned by a Palestinian in 1947 as it does to a Palestinian who owns a house in East Jerusalem. The refugee and the settler are opposites.

If this is true, how could Israel have been created at all? Arabs held most of the Land, had for centuries. If possesion is 9/10th the law, what right does Israel have to exist at ALL? No, possesion is not 9/10th, the deed is. The big difference is that settlers are there illegally, the refugees have the legal right to return. Simply based, you are arguing based on the notion that MIGHT MAKES RIGHT. Well, sorry, that's immoral and wrong, and I will never play by such a twisted and inhuman rule!

Sorry, I meant Mexico proper, not New Mexico.
If any Israelis move into Area A, the PA will expel them, and they'll actually face a fine from the Israeli justice system. But the point here with the analogy to the US is that you can't just kill immigrants, as the Palestinians seem to think they can do.

Most israeli's killed are not settlers but soldiers or civilians in israel. Besides, there is a major difference. The israeli government subsidizes the housing, so, big settlements are not the actions of individuals, like trying to sneak accross the US-Mexico border- they are a policy of state, and an illegal one at that.

Yes, but there were numerous other smaller suicide bombings. I might as well say that the Palestinian death toll couldn't have been higher than the Israeli one since suicide bombers killed 140 Israelis in a day when never even 20 Palestinians were killed in one day. Hundreds of Israelis were killed in the bombings, which took place over a period of years.

So you would agree that your everyday chances of getting killed are bigger for a Palestinian than an Israeli, right? At the end of the day, more palestinians have died, but also at the end of the day, that is immaterial. The question is, who is responsible for what, and what must they do to rectify their actions. neither side is yet willing to do what they must.

That people could kill their neighbors en masse for a trifle was something we always knew. That they'd kill themselves though is news.

My point is that there is something more than just Palestinian disgust for their new Jewish neighbors motivating them to blow themselves up. There is an infrastructure of incitement to terrorism which assures Palestinian men that if they blow themselves up to kill Jewish teenagers, they are holy and blessed martyrs both to Islam and to the Palestinian people who will be remembered and celeberated as role models for the young, and that their families will recieve special stipends.

The Zealots dies for their cause, so fanaticism is nothing new in the region. Most people killing themselevs are also barely out of beign teenagers themselves. To repeat my point ad-infinitum- what hamas, islamic Jihad, and parts of fatah do is criminal and immoral. That still does not absolve israel of its crimes.

I think the US does not like the precedent of the EU messing with our allies. But besides, the EU isn't going to do such a thing anyway.

The US can go screw itself really. The EU is a far more important ally for the US than israel can ever be, and the EU does care far more about human rights than the US, and support for Israel there is weak, so it is not an impossibility.

A Partition is worthwhile, but THE partition isn't - that is, there is a point in saying that the two sides each deserve separate states - but there is no sense in saying that the line which Jordanian forces were able to hold in 1949 represents the boundaries of a new and different state more than fifty years later. We might as well return

Yet that is the line we have to work with, and that is the line that must be used. The Palestininans have the right to live in their land, just as the Israelis do. So, either a federation is formed for the whole land, or Israel gives back what it took in 1967, and the palestinians make a state out of that. Israel is still getting 78% of the land while certainly not being 78% of the people, since, if we take the refugees into account, there are as many palestinians as israelis (count here only the Jews for israeli, and Israeli Arabs for Palestinians)

True, although I hope you do know that there is some difference between Arab and Muslim.

yes, i know there is a difference, but even Arab-christian relations with Jews were better than European-chiristians and Jews.

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Comrade Tribune
No nuking needed, Paiktis; my masterplan is better: See above.

Without bases in Eurasia, the US would speedily be reduced economically and politically to its natural importance in the order of things, which is smallish. A US reduced to the political influence it had in 1850 is something I could live with.

and let europe go back to screwing things up

compare now with all time before now

the world's peace situation is pretty good, and getting better

and you would throw it all away, becuase of some misguided and screwed up anger

europe screwed up

it is the new worlds turn

the US is handeling things well, you just want to take for yourself once again

when will europe quit being greedy?

they already stole from the world for 500 years

Jon Miller

[GePap]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov

Palestinians: reason - territorial conflict with israel and hate towards it, plus, to some extent the opression from occupation.
you seem to think the conflict results from the occupation while infact the occupation resulted from it.

And I thought you knew your history. The PLO was formed in 1969, the Israeli occupation begun in 1967. Hmmm?, which predates which? I wonder? The occupation begun with Israel launching a pre-emptive war vs. its neighbors, though I recommend your read Avram Burg's (hope i spelled that right) account of how that war begun. It is very illuminating, and the fact that the man was a memebr of the Stern gang,then a military hero of the 1948 war, then a knesset memebr, gives him some credibility in my eyes. So, no Sirotnikov, the occupation predates any israeli conflict with paletinian extremists, unless you are a believer in the Golda Meir 'there are no palestinians' line and lump all Arabs together.

I'm not opposed to armed conflicts, if differences are unbridgeable by conversation (as apparently they were in 48).

But they can be bridged if evryone follows international law. the rpoblem is that israel has dificulties with the notion of international laws....

But then using terror squads against Israel, is unacceptable.

I agree

You do, by giving terrorists traits they don't have like concience and such. If they'd have concience they'd be simple combatants.

Are you a terrorist Sirotnikov? If not, how can you make such a claim? Your understanding of Human beings seems rather limited...

But you know very well it's not realistic, since at least one side in each forementioned conflict is interested in continuing the war.

I agree too...

So, if one side wants to fight, you can't expect the other side to turn the other cheeck and be slaughtered. It's nice and all, but not real.

And which side would you be talking about? remeber, the first people to die back in sept. 2000 were all palestinians. Did they have to just sit there and turn the other cheek?

How to solve this?
Solve conflict!
But the violence is still around and feeds itself.
Therefore violence must be solved first, or else, the conflict won't really be solved.

BUt you won't solve the violence with violence. It may seem like an endless circle, but that is only true if both sides remain gutless, unable to own up toi their mistakes, and take decisive actions. The current violence is driven by cowardice and stupidity by both sides.

But that would be "imposing our values" and lefties would find it wrong.

cheap shot!

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by GePap
And I thought you knew your history. The PLO was formed in 1969, the Israeli occupation begun in 1967.

Actually, the PLO was formed in 1964 by Egypt. It was dead at birth, however, and was an impotant organization until Arafat's Fatah took it over.

[Comrade Tribune]

Originally posted by Jon Miller


and let europe go back to screwing things up

compare now with all time before now

the world's peace situation is pretty good, and getting better

and you would throw it all away, becuase of some misguided and screwed up anger

europe screwed up

it is the new worlds turn

the US is handeling things well, you just want to take for yourself once again

when will europe quit being greedy?

they already stole from the world for 500 years

Jon Miller

Tell me your post is a parody, right?

[Gatekeeper]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
I guess the genocide Israel's been waging up to now was just off the cuff.

Fascinating. I've always associated genocide with Adolf Hitler, Pol Pot, mass graves and Slobodan Milosevic. Perhaps the tens of millions of Soviet and Chinese citizens killed by their communist governments during Stalin's and Mao's "formative" years of ruling would fit the description as well?

I strongly suggest, Che, that you weigh the word "genocide" carefully before so blithely tossing it about. I'm not saying that what Israel is doing is always what I would do, or what should or could be done (that old "backseat driver" and "armchair quarterback" syndrome, you see), but I have yet to see Israeli soldiers lining up Palestinians and machine gunning them into graves that the Pals themselves were forced to dig.

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