Belgium being crazy and hypocritical or "Can't we war anymore?"

[Natan]

Originally posted by Ecowiz Returns
So War is your answer.

When there is no alternative, yes.

You don't even have to live there. It's like watching Wrestling: choose the good guy, choose the bad guy and than hope the fight is long enough so you can enjoy, and ultimatelly tthe good guy wins.

PEOPLE IS DYING THERE, MAN! EVERY SINGLE DAY! PEOPLE LIKE YOU AND ME!

Trust me, I understand that at least as well as you do.

And you say Palestinians will get tired!

If that was not such a pittifull argument, for a solution to such a serious human problem I would laugh.

Of course, what I said is a simplification of a complex proccess. But that's basically how guerilla wars end - people cease being willing to pay the price of continued resistance.

Most Palestinians:
Think they're right!
Are being killed by Israellis! And do not think it is fair!
Hate Israellis to the bone!

Every time a non beligerant palestinian has one family member or a friend, emprisoned or killed by an occupying army, the more beligerant he becomes.

But, you say they'll eventually get tired.

Right...

Eventually, they will see that they are getting nowhere, that they are suffering a lot, and that maybe cooperation with Israel would improve things.

But again, even if they don't stop - well, then the war will continue for a long time. It's not that I'm opposed to peace with the PA - I'm no more opposed to that then I am to flying unassisted by jumping off a cliff and flapping your arms. But I sincerely hope no one I care about tries either one of them.

[Sirotnikov]

When Mr. Arafat calls for an International Peace force in "Palestinian Territories" Israelli Government is against it. Why?

Peace keeping forces are great to stop an army from attacking. They will not be able to spot or stop terrorists.

Infact, it is suspected, and very much supported by facts, that UN "peace keepers" in South Lebanon cooperated with Hizballa terrorists in the kidnapping of 3 Israeli soldiers, and not only did nothing to stop the terracts, but provided the terrorists with logistical support, such as repairing their car.

[Sirotnikov]

An Airport is usefull is any Economy. Even CIV programers knew that (that's why trade points increase, remember?). An Airport is crucial to tourism. Of course you can't have tourism in a place raided by war, but that's a all diferent ball game. If you think the Autonomic Territory of Palestine does not need an Airport (an I see you undervalue Palestinian Diplomacy and overvalue Arafat's superpowers to overcome crime in Palestine), try to answer this: why to Israle need an Airport? Same reason serve to "Palestine".

But you're talking about some other reality, not the one we have.

That airport is used for strictly diplomatical purposes. It serves Arafat, and sometimes foreign leaders that come and visit.

The attack on it was a call to Arafat to show that if he won't fight terror, he should remember his status is limited and can be undone.

Again I remember that Arafat is a weak leader. Haven't you noticed that? Only you seem to believe he CAN do something about it by himself

The Oslo talks started on the basis that Arafat is a strong leader that can and will fight terror.

If he can't do that:

A) We do it for him, by terminating terrorists and incursions in which we arrest dozens of terrorists.

B) He should make way towards a more capable leader.

Even if he's the only one truely wanting peace, if he has no power, he is useless.

Finally, please remember that he himself created the illusion / reality where he has no power. He himself ordered the realease of Hamas and Jihad terrorists from prisons in autumn of 2000.

Finally he continually forcefully ruled the PLO and the Fatah group, so to claim he is now powerless is somehow not inline with history.

Oh, it served a purpose allright! Tell me, don't you need a port in Israel to. to bad you undervalue so much the economic need of others!

This was again symbolic and done in order to be a warning light to Arafat.

I agree with you. But how could he, otherwize be at float?

So we should "accept" that he is calling for terror?
I don't think so.

Finally one must wonder which of the two voices is sincere. I doubt it's the peacefull one.

Then you will have peace talks with who?
Are you sure you want peace.
It seem to me all you want is to have them all dead.

Oh come on now.
You have to learn to tell the difference between what Natan says and your biases.

If there is no real leader, it's very sad, but ignoring the problem and continuing talks with someone that doesn't really represent his people is futile and stupid.

I never talked about souvenirs so the mere reference is both offensive and inapropriate.

How so?
He simply mentioned what the Airport is really used for.

A good question is why noone else uses the Airport?

I assume two reasons:
A) No money to have other flights but Arafat. International aid goes to fund Arafat's flights and limos.

B) Israel won't allow it. Once they have international flights, they can fly in fellow al-qaida members. This won't be allowed until there is peace and normalization.

Another is why should an internationally recognized political leader (however weak he his) should not be allowed to have diplomatic talks with other countries?

Firstly we don't prevent anyone from talking to him. We just don't agree with him leaving. Because he fails to fulfil the conditions to make him a recognized political leader - a condition which he signed in Oslo and promised to Rabin - to stop terror and fight it.

So, who really isn't aknowleging the "Palestinian" economic needs?

For Israel, Israeli security needs are more important.

Until the intifada the area was booming.

But now, Israel is in it's second largest recession ever and the PA is where it was 8 years ago.

How many voices do you hear in Israel, stating decisions on your war?

A whole knesset.

This week only, I've heard the position of Arafat, the Hezbolah leader and the PLF leader. The only that called for Peace is Arafat.

Because he is a good Diplomat.

You know, not everyone are as frank as you picture them.

You know, perfectly well, the PLO movement doesn't speak with a single voice! The only time you'll have that is when they all begin to say the only way is war. Is that what you want?

But they are still saying that. And Arafat is saying that in Arabic. He also stated publically in an arabic conference a few years ago that the Oslo process is "a way of steps to get political and military power to continue fighting against Israel's existance".

I'm convinced Israel has plenty of faults. You're no saints, myfriend, noone is, not even I pretend to be one.

Yet you pretend Arafat is one.

USSR (RIP);

That's what you think.
Infact Russia is in no way more democratic or free than the USSR, but rather pretends to be. I watch russian TV so I know.
Btw, they just recently closed down the only two non-govt. controlled TV stations.

War is not a solution!!!

It seemed to save the world pretty well in WWI and WWII, while the appeasement of the Germans before WWII only helped to grow their hunger.

However, I believe Israel holds the key to the solution.

I disagree.
Israel has been holding the solution for 8 years.
It's time for Arafat to go, and for a real peace leader to come.

You can't enforce Peace in the Palestine because the Palestinians simply hate you

Then we shall enforce security.
We won't let them kill us so that they hate us less.

They don't seem to be able or even wanting to try Peace with you (you either, actually)

Israel, while able not to, decided to talk with Arafat.
Israel, while able not to, decided to give arms to PLO.
Israel, while able not to, decided to build the basis for a Palestinian state.

Arafat cancelled all that with his unpeaceful actions and unreadiness to burry the hatchet.

However, they asked for an International Peace Force. You can set the rules. Can't be Arabs (their friends) nor Americans (allegedly your best friends). Still plenty of countries left (ex: European Countries; South American Countries - Brasil, for instance).

See top of my post.

Furthermore, Europeans are arabs best friends, and love to behave rightously, since they try to deny their barbaric past.

Or you can have war. And when all Palestinians are dead, you must kill all the Jordans, Sirians, Egiptians, Iranians, ....
Is that the way you think is best?

Again you're mixing up your biases.

Never has anyone said we will or should kill palestinians.

Infact no one is killing palestinians.

What Israel is doing is targeting warmongering palestinians which risk Israel. It may also hit innocents on mistake, but it happens in war.

Could you name him, please?

So if there no one who really wants peace, we should instead pretend Arafat does and talk with him?



[q]

[Sirotnikov]

And you say Palestinians will get tired!

If that was not such a pittifull argument, for a solution to such a serious human problem I would laugh.

Again you're mixing up what he said with your biases.

We want the terrorists to get tired. No one is fighting the palestinian civilian.

The palestinian people are a victim of their extremists, but while the extremists are in charge, we can do nothing to save the people.

Most Palestinians:
Think they're right!
Are being killed by Israellis! And do not think it is fair!
Hate Israellis to the bone!

1. So what? The Taliban think they're right too.
2. Not true. Out of 2 million in the west bank and Gaza, 800 are claimed to be dead, 150 of them are known terrorists. Several hundreds have been arrested.

Every time a non beligerant palestinian has one family member or a friend, emprisoned or killed by an occupying army, the more beligerant he becomes.

But, you say they'll eventually get tired.

They are already tired.
But they see no way out - because Arafat refused peace.
Had arafat not refused, they'd be happy today.


You wish to avoid conflict at any price, but for Israel, the price is it's own safety and existance.

Arafat is using the western sympathy and belief in public statements. Infact is his trying to wear Israel down to reach goals in steps.

A big palestinian country.
Limitations on Israel.
4 Million palestinians, kids of maximum 700,000 refugess in 48, return to Israel, and make the majority.
Israel is cancelled using it's own democratic procedure.
Jews are extermianted or kciked out.

Remember Arafat takes his model from Nasser, Assad and Saddam Hussein. He supported him during the conflict in 1990.

[Ecowiz Returns]

Whatever

[Eli]

And another demonstration to how Arafat is fooling everyone :
Yesterday the PA declared in English for the CNN and the BBC that all Palestinians should stop any attacks against Israel.
Today, in Arabic for the crowds in Rammalah Arafat was yelling "Jihad! Jihad! Jihad!" and singing "We march to Jerusalem with million Shahids(martyrs)".

[Ecowiz Returns]

What makes you believe Europeans do not know what the man say in Arabic?



Eli:
Have you ever heard about translators?

Arafat's delcarations in Arabic are also bradcasted, and duly translated, in European television, you know?

Any informed European knows perfectly well what the man says in Arabic!

Stop wearing that argument because it does not have any added value.

Some time ago, Mr. Arafat spoke in Arabic, not of War, but of a Palestinian State. Somewhere along the way, his discourse changed. But it wasn't the only thing that changed, in the meantime.

[Ecowiz Returns]

What makes you believe Europeans do not know what the man say in Arabic?



Eli:
Have you ever heard about translators?

Arafat's delcarations in Arabic are also bradcasted, and duly translated, in European television, you know?

Any informed European knows perfectly well what the man says in Arabic!

Stop wearing that argument because it does not have any added value.

Some time ago, Mr. Arafat spoke in Arabic, not of War, but of a Palestinian State. Somewhere along the way, his discourse changed. But it wasn't the only thing that changed, in the meantime.

Mr. Arafat isn't fooling noone! Everyone knows he and his cabinet are calling for war.

But, what can I say. You wanted it... you have it!

[Eli]

Re: What makes you believe Europeans do not know what the man say in Arabic?

Originally posted by Ecowiz Returns


Eli:
Have you ever heard about translators?

Arafat's delcarations in Arabic are also bradcasted, and duly translated, in European television, you know?

Any informed European knows perfectly well what the man says in Arabic!

I watch European TV chanells, I read European newspapers websites on daily basis(babelfish rules) and Arafat's warlike statements in Arabic are constantly ignored.