Belgium being crazy and hypocritical or "Can't we war anymore?"

[Goingonit]

The following message is not a troll. It is also not ment to offend (surprisingly enough).

Let's face it. Europe is, on the whole, antisemitic. Thos doesn't mean Europeans are antisemitic, but there is a prevailing undercurent of not liking Jews very much. This isn't just Germany and Austria, either. I think that Europe's continued support of the Palestinian Authority is evidence of this, as is the current Sharon trial thing. I'm not saying that if you're sympathetic to the Palestinian cause, you're antisemitic, but some people are both.

[Roland]

Quite interesting. From a quick glimpse: It is not exactly a private party prosecution, but a pre-trial sort of hearing started due to a complaint, but it is relating to issues of admissibility of an indictment. Given that multi-stage procedure with no accused to put on trial, it could drag out for ages.....

[Roland]

Originally posted by Goingonit
Let's face it. Europe is, on the whole, antisemitic.... This isn't just Germany and Austria, either....

Regarding the Palestinian/Israeli conflict, it's more that Zionism does not enjoy overwhelming sympathies in Europe. As for being antisemitic "on the whole" - it's a shame we no longer have Kreisky to deal with that line....

[Sirotnikov]

Re: Was it really Shimon Perez the one "indicted"?

On what the rest is concerned, Isralelli Government wants war, not peace. There is nothing hypocritical in trying to force peace, unless you are waging war somewhere else. That is not the case of Belgium.

It is hypocritical to "force peace" selectively.

Trully hypochritical is forcing a war while claiming to want Peace: such are the deeds of the current Israelli Goverment.

Back that up please so I can refute it.

It's a blank statement.

And the faces of this hypocracy are the peacefull Perez, justifying the actions of warmonger Sharon. Two faces of the same hypocritical coin, IMHO.

I think you should learn more about what happens here daily.

"Can't we war anymore?"
- Well, you shouldn't.

Especially when what is all about is a piece of land, that three religions call Holy, forgeting that all God's Creation is equally holy. When that land is blemished by the blood of brothers and sisters... i begin to wonder is it is still that special, in God's eyes.

We didn't choose to war.
But as long as there is agression, we will respond.

In the ME, if you cave, you lose.

[Ecowiz Returns]

Re: Re: Was it really Shimon Perez the one "indicted"?

Originally posted by Sirotnikov
It is hypocritical to "force peace" selectively.

I agree.

Originally posted by Sirotnikov

Trully hypochritical is forcing a war while claiming to want Peace: such are the deeds of the current Israelli Goverment.

Back that up please so I can refute it.

It's a blank statement.

I'll try to recall the last few facts. Maybe I'll recall them incorrectly, but you will refute me on that.

An attack, by a faction of PLO, not Mr. Arafat's group, on civilians was answered with the destruction of the Airport. Did that faction used the Airport? No. Some helis were destroid. Did that faction used them? No. Have there ever been helis used in aterrorist atack by Palestinians? No. Does the Palestinian Economy need an Airport? Yes.

Another attack, by another faction of PLO, not the one of Mr. Arafat. Answer: negate Mr. Arafats liberty.

Weapons were found, going by boat to the Occupied Territories. Answer: the port is destroid. Another blow in Palestinian Economy.

The last few terrorist attacks were performs, always by different groups. However, the answer was always against Mr. Arafat and the Palestinian Economy. From those groups, not a single person was enprisoned by the Israely police or military, altough they took control of the area.

Is this wanting peace? Is this fighting the terrorist action?

The only voice asking for peace on PLO is Mr. Arafat. Maybe he is lying, but the israelly Goverment is not allowing to call the bluff. Instead, it seems to be trying to shut that voice, making any compromise impossible.

When Mr. Arafat calls for an International Peace force in "Palestinian Territories" Israelli Government is against it. Why?

Is it for the sake of Peace?

Originally posted by Sirotnikov
We didn't choose to war.
But as long as there is agression, we will respond.

In the ME, if you cave, you lose.

I'm sure you didn't. But you don't seem to understand you are fighting a war you can't win by force. You can't stop the guns from entering by destroying the ports. They will enter by land, before your very eyes if need be, while they feel they have reason to risk it. You can't stop every single "Palestinian" to attach a bomb and explode, by killing their family and friends; that weill only fuel their hattered. You can't stop all the Arab Oil money that supports terrorism while giving them reasons to claim they are fighting the good fight.

In the end of this, if you want an end to this, you will be a country, surrounded by muslim countries, and you must be friends with them to feel safe with them. You must have reasons to cooperate, not to fight. The Israelli Government is NOT giving noone reasons to cooperate. Even their muslim friends, Jordan and Egipt, are silent when Israelli civilians are attacked in shamefull, cowardly acts. They cannot support Israel because now the Arab world does not see Israel as seeking peace.

[Natan]

Re: Re: Re: Was it really Shimon Perez the one "indicted"?

Originally posted by Ecowiz Returns
An attack, by a faction of PLO, not Mr. Arafat's group, on civilians was answered with the destruction of the Airport.

Arafat has said that there are no differences between his group and the others. I'll get you his exact words if you like.

Did that faction used the Airport? No. Some helis were destroid. Did that faction used them? No. Have there ever been helis used in aterrorist atack by Palestinians? No. Does the Palestinian Economy need an Airport?

No. The Palestinian economy does not need an airport. That airport was only used by Arafat himself to fly all over the world instead of staying at home and fighting terrorism. AFAIK, no one else ever used it.

Another attack, by another faction of PLO, not the one of Mr. Arafat. Answer: negate Mr. Arafats liberty.

Again, he endorses these groups and gives them freedom to operate.

Weapons were found, going by boat to the Occupied Territories. Answer: the port is destroid. Another blow in Palestinian Economy.

Blowing up the port served little purpose, but I haven't seen any evidence that it actually hurt the Palestinian economy.

The only voice asking for peace on PLO is Mr. Arafat. Maybe he is lying, but the israelly Goverment is not allowing to call the bluff. Instead, it seems to be trying to shut that voice, making any compromise impossible.

That's because the same voice can be heard in Arabic endorsing suicide bombings and Hamas.

When Mr. Arafat calls for an International Peace force in "Palestinian Territories" Israelli Government is against it. Why?

Because such a peace force would only serve to widen the conflict.

I'm sure you didn't. But you don't seem to understand you are fighting a war you can't win by force. You can't stop the guns from entering by destroying the ports. They will enter by land, before your very eyes if need be, while they feel they have reason to risk it.

Actually, guerilla wars can be won. I'll give examples if neccessary.

You can't stop every single "Palestinian" to attach a bomb and explode, by killing their family and friends; that weill only fuel their hattered. You can't stop all the Arab Oil money that supports terrorism while giving them reasons to claim they are fighting the good fight.

So what you're saying is that Palestinian victory is inevitable? I think that is a claim not grounded in reality.

[Goingonit]

Israel doesn't want an international peace force because there are exactly 3 countries that support Israel in the UN.

One is the US.
One is Israel.
One IIRC is the Marshall Islands.

[Ecowiz Returns]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Was it really Shimon Perez the one "indicted"?

Originally posted by Natan

Arafat has said that there are no differences between his group and the others. I'll get you his exact words if you like.

What would you say if you were a weak leader of a group of, mostly, blood thirsting haters, trying to maintain a position that in itself is not very popular among the "Palestinians"?

No. The Palestinian economy does not need an airport. That airport was only used by Arafat himself to fly all over the world instead of staying at home and fighting terrorism. AFAIK, no one else ever used it.

An Airport is usefull is any Economy. Even CIV programers knew that (that's why trade points increase, remember?). An Airport is crucial to tourism. Of course you can't have tourism in a place raided by war, but that's a all diferent ball game. If you think the Autonomic Territory of Palestine does not need an Airport (an I see you undervalue Palestinian Diplomacy and overvalue Arafat's superpowers to overcome crime in Palestine), try to answer this: why to Israle need an Airport? Same reason serve to "Palestine".

Again, he endorses these groups and gives them freedom to operate.

Again I remember that Arafat is a weak leader. Haven't you noticed that? Only you seem to believe he CAN do something about it by himself.

Blowing up the port served little purpose, but I haven't seen any evidence that it actually hurt the Palestinian economy.

Oh, it served a purpose allright! Tell me, don't you need a port in Israel to. to bad you undervalue so much the economic need of others!

That's because the same voice can be heard in Arabic endorsing suicide bombings and Hamas.

I agree with you. But how could he, otherwize be at float?

Because such a peace force would only serve to widen the conflict.

He he, now you worry about us! Why do I feel that's not the true answer?

Actually, guerilla wars can be won. I'll give examples if neccessary.

So what you're saying is that Palestinian victory is inevitable? I think that is a claim not grounded in reality.

Great, give me examples!
I'll begin with counter examples:
Vietnam; Angola; Mozambique...; Congo; East Timor; Philllipines; Colombia, just to remember a few.


And I'm not saying that Palestinian victory is inevitable. The way things are, you'll both loose.

[Natan]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Was it really Shimon Perez the one "indicted"?

Originally posted by Ecowiz Returns
What would you say if you were a weak leader of a group of, mostly, blood thirsting haters, trying to maintain a position that in itself is not very popular among the "Palestinians"?

If Arafat is too weak to control the terrorists, and in fact, too weak to even criticize them, why should Israel be negotiating with him? Micky Mouse would have as much control over the Palestinian street.

An Airport is usefull is any Economy. Even CIV programers knew that (that's why trade points increase, remember?). An Airport is crucial to tourism. Of course you can't have tourism in a place raided by war, but that's a all diferent ball game. If you think the Autonomic Territory of Palestine does not need an Airport (an I see you undervalue Palestinian Diplomacy and overvalue Arafat's superpowers to overcome crime in Palestine), try to answer this: why to Israle need an Airport? Same reason serve to "Palestine".

As I said, no one but Arafat used the airport anyway. It was just there for his diplomatic flights. The Palestinian economy is weak, but not so weak that it's sustained by the souveniers Arafat brings back from his diplomatic trips.

Again I remember that Arafat is a weak leader. Haven't you noticed that? Only you seem to believe he CAN do something about it by himself.

If he can't do anything, then he is irrelevant.

Oh, it served a purpose allright! Tell me, don't you need a port in Israel to. to bad you undervalue so much the economic need of others!

Too bad you refuse to acknowledge the actual state of the Palestinian economy.

I agree with you. But how could he, otherwize be at float?

Come on now - the "they would have taken away my family and shot them" excuse works nicely if you're just a low-level gulag official, but from Stalin himself, it just doesn't work.

He he, now you worry about us! Why do I feel that's not the true answer?

Because you're already completely convinced that Israel is at fault but have no evidence to show it?

Great, give me examples!
I'll begin with counter examples:
Vietnam; Angola; Mozambique...; Congo; East Timor; Philllipines; Colombia, just to remember a few.

Malaya, Syria, USSR(twice), Phillipines(1900), Iraq.

[Az]

sure guerillas can be beaten . if not , everyone would pass strictly to this technique...

it's all a matter of artillery and the willpower to use it , actually...

(those Grads can clear that forest rather swiftly)


The ME Discussion itself is rather dull , so I won't comment.

[Ecowiz Returns]

Originally posted by Natan

If Arafat is too weak to control the terrorists, and in fact, too weak to even criticize them, why should Israel be negotiating with him? Micky Mouse would have as much control over the Palestinian street.

Originally posted by Natan
If he can't do anything, then he is irrelevant.

I see. So you prefer the Kill Micky Mouse approach.
Then you will have peace talks with who?
Are you sure you want peace.
It seem to me all you want is to have them all dead.

As I said, no one but Arafat used the airport anyway. It was just there for his diplomatic flights. The Palestinian economy is weak, but not so weak that it's sustained by the souveniers Arafat brings back from his diplomatic trips.

I never talked about souvenirs so the mere reference is both offensive and inapropriate.
A good question is why noone else uses the Airport?
Another is why should an internationally recognized political leader (however weak he his) should not be allowed to have diplomatic talks with other countries?

Too bad you refuse to acknowledge the actual state of the Palestinian economy.

It is awfull, as any war raged economy is expected to be.
But that's not unexpected, when the most elligeable partner is AT WAR WITH THEM!
Better yet... doing Industrial Sabotage, as we like so much to do, here is CIV!
So, who really isn't aknowleging the "Palestinian" economic needs?

Come on now - the "they would have taken away my family and shot them" excuse works nicely if you're just a low-level gulag official, but from Stalin himself, it just doesn't work.

Get real!
How many voices do you hear in Israel, stating decisions on your war? One. There you have a strong leader!
How many voices do you have in the Palestinian side?
This week only, I've heard the position of Arafat, the Hezbolah leader and the PLF leader. The only that called for Peace is Arafat.
You know, perfectly well, the PLO movement doesn't speak with a single voice! The only time you'll have that is when they all begin to say the only way is war. Is that what you want?

Because you're already completely convinced that Israel is at fault but have no evidence to show it?

I'm convinced Israel has plenty of faults. You're no saints, myfriend, noone is, not even I pretend to be one.
I'm also convinced the Palestinians are also at fault. You read what I wrote, no? I called them terrorists and cowards. Do you think I belied these to be qualities?
You, on the other hand are completelly convinced Isreal is NOT at fault. You are parcial, which is understandable but does not help a fruitfull debate.
But, on this account don't read just what I write.
Please comment this:

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Goingonit
Israel doesn't want an international peace force because there are exactly 3 countries that support Israel in the UN.

One is the US.
One is Israel.
One IIRC is the Marshall Islands.
[QUOTE]

That's my answer too!

So please try, for once, forget you're life is in danger, your family and you're frinds too (I know it is difficult, but it is necessary to have an open mind), and answer me this. Are you certain the all world is wrong?

Originally posted by Natan
Malaya, Syria, USSR(twice), Phillipines(1900), Iraq.

How many years did it took to end the war? Did it take so many years as your war?

How many were the countries that supported the guerrillas? Were they as many and as rich as the Arab countries?

Are you aware of what happened after those wars, to those countries?
I don't know about Malaya but: Syria (totalitary regime); USSR (RIP);Phillipines(one problem after the other);Iraq(big civilization change there, no doubt). Tell me, which of your examples do you prefer?
Now look all my examples:
Vietnam - after the war- Comunism
Angola, Mozambique..., Congo - after the independence war - Civil war
East Timor - let's wait and see - but there you have the UN forces;
Philllipines (still with the guerrilla)
Colombia: while there is war, there is coke (and vice-versa).

War is not a solution!!! Attacking is only the best defence if by attacking you weaken your enemy. Hate, is the Palestinian terrorist groups' strenght. Killing their friends and familly will only fuel it even more.

But, in the end. that's your choice.

I don't think Israel is to blame for all that has happened. However, I believe Israel holds the key to the solution. If you want Peace, you should try Peace. You can't enforce Peace in the Palestine because the Palestinians simply hate you. They don't seem to be able or even wanting to try Peace with you (you either, actually). However, they asked for an International Peace Force. You can set the rules. Can't be Arabs (their friends) nor Americans (allegedly your best friends). Still plenty of countries left (ex: European Countries; South American Countries - Brasil, for instance).

Or you can have war. And when all Palestinians are dead, you must kill all the Jordans, Sirians, Egiptians, Iranians, ....
Is that the way you think is best?

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Ecowiz Returns
Then you will have peace talks with who?
Are you sure you want peace.

I think that they'd prefer to have peace talks with someone who a) wants peace & b) has the power to deliver it. Is that really so hard to understand?

[Ecowiz Returns]

Originally posted by DinoDoc


I think that they'd prefer to have peace talks with someone who a) wants peace & b) has the power to deliver it. Is that really so hard to understand?

No. Cristal clear!

Could you name him, please?

[Natan]

Originally posted by Ecowiz Returns
I see. So you prefer the Kill Micky Mouse approach.
Then you will have peace talks with who?
Are you sure you want peace.
It seem to me all you want is to have them all dead.

Why is my desire for peace judged by my disapproval of your make-believe game with Arafat? This is like saying that if I don't believe that you can perform faith healing I want people to die of their illnesses.

I never talked about souvenirs so the mere reference is both offensive and inapropriate.

You talked about the airport's importance to the Palestinian economy, and as I said, the only contribution it could make is in the form of souveniers Arafat brings back. I don't see how this is offensive.

A good question is why noone else uses the Airport?

Because few people have the desire or need to and besides, I doubt it has the capacity to fly so many people around.

Another is why should an internationally recognized political leader (however weak he his) should not be allowed to have diplomatic talks with other countries?

Because he is a supporter of terrorism.

Get real!
How many voices do you hear in Israel, stating decisions on your war? One. There you have a strong leader!
How many voices do you have in the Palestinian side?
This week only, I've heard the position of Arafat, the Hezbolah leader and the PLF leader. The only that called for Peace is Arafat.

So? Why is talking about peace so great when he doesn't do anything about it? This is like saying that we shouldn't fight Mullah Omar since he says he won't attack America if we don't attack him.

You know, perfectly well, the PLO movement doesn't speak with a single voice! The only time you'll have that is when they all begin to say the only way is war. Is that what you want?

Again, the "if you don't play make believe with me then you're mean" argument.

I'm convinced Israel has plenty of faults. You're no saints, myfriend, noone is, not even I pretend to be one.

I am not an Israeli citizen. In fact, I've never been to Israel.

How many years did it took to end the war? Did it take so many years as your war?

The USSR put down the anarchists and other partisans within four or five years of the revolution, and crushed the nationalists after WWII within two or three. Syria ended Muslim Brotherhood terrorism in less than a year.

How many were the countries that supported the guerrillas? Were they as many and as rich as the Arab countries?

Much more so.

Are you aware of what happened after those wars, to those countries?
I don't know about Malaya but: Syria (totalitary regime)

Yes, but that's because the totalitarian regime won - so the regime was able to preserve its rule. Why can't a democratic regime do the same?

USSR (RIP)

Fifty years later. You might as well say that the Roman legion was a crummy military organizational pattern since the empire's gone.

Phillipines(one problem after the other)

Not in the period of US rule following our crushing of the rebels there.

Iraq(big civilization change there, no doubt). Tell me, which of your examples do you prefer?

I like Malaya and the Philippines. Maybe I should add Keny as well?

Now look all my examples:
Vietnam - after the war- Comunism

Wasn't that great?

Angola, Mozambique..., Congo - after the independence war - Civil war

Ditto.

War is not a solution!!! Attacking is only the best defence if by attacking you weaken your enemy.

I think being killed weaksn people, even if they are suicide bombers.

Hate, is the Palestinian terrorist groups' strenght. Killing their friends and familly will only fuel it even more.

No, they'll ultimately get tired.

I don't think Israel is to blame for all that has happened. However, I believe Israel holds the key to the solution. If you want Peace, you should try Peace. You can't enforce Peace in the Palestine because the Palestinians simply hate you. They don't seem to be able or even wanting to try Peace with you (you either, actually).

So what you're saying is that if I drop my gun the mugger might decide to let me go?

However, they asked for an International Peace Force. You can set the rules. Can't be Arabs (their friends) nor Americans (allegedly your best friends). Still plenty of countries left (ex: European Countries; South American Countries - Brasil, for instance).

But the only purpose of this force is to internationalize the conflict, legitimize the terrorist PA entity, and delegitimize Israel.

Or you can have war. And when all Palestinians are dead, you must kill all the Jordans, Sirians, Egiptians, Iranians, ....
Is that the way you think is best?

No, because the Palestinians are going to learn that opposing Israel sends you to the jail or the grave, and they'll stop before even a signifigant percentage of their population is gone. And even if they don't, well, Israel will just have to hold out.

[Ecowiz Returns]

Geez, Nathan, and I thought there was a good reason for you to be so partizan!



So War is your answer.

Whatever.

You don't even have to live there. It's like watching Wrestling: choose the good guy, choose the bad guy and than hope the fight is long enough so you can enjoy, and ultimatelly tthe good guy wins.

PEOPLE IS DYING THERE, MAN! EVERY SINGLE DAY! PEOPLE LIKE YOU AND ME!

And you say Palestinians will get tired!

If that was not such a pittifull argument, for a solution to such a serious human problem I would laugh.

Most Palestinians:
Think they're right!
Are being killed by Israellis! And do not think it is fair!
Hate Israellis to the bone!

Every time a non beligerant palestinian has one family member or a friend, emprisoned or killed by an occupying army, the more beligerant he becomes.

But, you say they'll eventually get tired.

Right...

Whatever.