Israel I'm getting a clear picture

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by Eli
Simon, dont bother. It's like convincing Bin Laden.

You're wrong.

The point is not to convince him.

I'm not arguing with him, but against him.

My mission is to keep people who are less informed about the situation from reading his, often talented, misrepresentations of truth and mix up of opinions and taking them for truths.

I try and bring counter arguements and correct facts and broaden the perspective of the potencial reader of this forum.

Your attitude is practicaly the same as the faulty Israeli foreign ministry. They ceased making valid points long time ago and simply state facts and repeat slogans instead of bringing facts.

The palestinians bring facts. They invent them of the top of their head and bring them to the air.

They have a special person for each channel. More talented people assigned to CNN to twist the story well, and less talented people go to BBC where their work of twisting the truth is done for them by the British anchors.

[Eli]

And if you didnt notice, we're repeating the same arguments for more than a year now.

[Natan]

Re: Frankly I don't give a damn!

Originally posted by MOBIUS
More Israelis killed?

So what - you brought it on yourselves!

Of course, all the citizens of a country are responsible for the actions of its government. Next time a Briton gets killed by terrorists, I should blame it on your participation in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

While Israel continues to occupy the West Bank and Gaza - THERE WILL BE NO PEACE!

While Israel continues to expand it's illegal settlements in the West Bank and Gaza - THERE WILL BE NO PEACE!

While Israel continues to accept a terrorist entity in the West Bank and Gaza - there will be no peace!

While that War Criminal Ariel Sharon is still in power - THERE WILL BE NO PEACE!

Firstly, we've already discussed the Sabra and Shattilla issue ad nauseum, specifically, that Sharon did not know the phalange were going to perpetrate a massacre.

While Israel continues to practice it's discriminatory and apartheid policies - THERE WILL BE NO PEACE!

Actually, peace will come when the Palestinians stop using violence as a means to achieve their political aims. And trust me - if you want to see discrimination and Apartheid, Israel isn't an example of it - you'd have to go an Arab country.

Both sides may be equally guilty for the current levels of violence, but it was the Zionists who invaded Palestine with the help of their British (actually the British stupidity of signing the Balfour Declaration!) and American allies that are guilty of starting this whole conflict!

After all, Holocaust survivors, refugees from the USSR, and Jewish Iraqi Kurds should have rolled over and died - would have been more convenient for you; you wouldn't have to argue about it on internet forums.

Before WWI, Jews and Muslims lived together in Palestine in peace!

Yes, because the Muslims were discriminating against Jews (and Christians) in a manner far more disgusting than any Israeli policy today.

Why do the Israelis deserve their own country!!? They lost it two millenia ago! What about the Kurds, or the Native Americans - are they not at least as deserving!!? So where is their country then?

If they build it, they can have it. Israel was not built by charity, it was built by blood, tears, toil and sweat.

You made you bed - now lie in it!

I feel sorry for all peace loving, moderate Israelis who want to see an end to the bloodshed...

So did you know those poor people in Hadera are evil, war-mongering, fascist Israelis from looking at the photograph, or was that last comment a sick joke meant to emphasize the sentence prior?

The others who choose to live by the sword can die by the sword for all I care!

The pity of it all is that it's mostly the easy innocent targets of both side that end up getting killed!

The pity is that ignorant people like you never really mean it when they say they've stopped caring. I'd be glad if you'd stop caring enough to right poorly constructed leftist rants employing mildly racist rhetoric with a good smattering of idiocy to little effect.

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by Simon Darkshade
So then, the solution is for the Israelis to leave Israel because they have a choice to. Where do they go? Back to the former Soviet Union where many came from?

Why not? In more ways it's more their home than Israel is... I think we're all big enough to realise that Israel is here to stay, so trying to put words into my mouth like that just won't work - sorry!

Strictly speaking Israel should withdraw to it's original UN demarcated borders - but again we all know that's not going to happen...

My, albeit arbitrary, solution would be to return territory (that's 100%) to the pre 1967 borders - now I say arbitrary, because I would support that because that's about the best the Palestinians are EVER likely to get! But then I'm not some Palestinian who was terrorised out of the Palestinian portion of greater Israel in 1948... So those people should either be allowed to return (fat chance!) or be adequately compensated in today's values for the land and possessions they lost!

These people were attacked and killed indiscriminantly because they were Israelis, because they were Jews. To me, that does carry certain overtones

They were attack because they were an easy target, the problem with the IDF from a terrorist POV is that they are more than capable of defending themselves and therefore not a very attractive target...

If you feel there are more important things, no one is forcing you to care, or to spout garbage. Just don't care or think about the issue.

I just think the government of Israel has it's head so far up it's own arse that it is oblivious to the fact that the more Palestinians/terrorists it kills the more that population becomes blinded by rage and attacks those it can most easily reach (the innocent). The reason why the onus is on Israel is because it is the one who wields the power (like a gigantic mallet!) and it is the one that is illegally occupying Palestinian territory! When will they realise that their current policies are not working and that maybe they should try something different?

To generalize that every Israeli voted for Sharon, and should therefore bear the brunt of his actions, supposed or otherwise, is a quite disgusting one when that mean war, death and terror.

That's cause you're too dumb to realise that that is not what I mean - another crude attempt to put words into my mouth...

That Sharon is in power is the will of the 'majority' of people - that is not every Israeli, it is fatuous of you to suggest that it is...

These are innocent civilians - REAL ****ING PEOPLE, not just some ephemeral concept.

Yes and the sooner that the Israeli government realises it and changes their tactics the better! See, even someone like you would be a worthy addition to the Israeli cabinet - because they don't seem to!

They were deep inside Israel itself, not in the West Bank; they were not in occupation of Palestinian territory, unless you take the view that Israel has no right to exist, which was one of your outrageous points.

They were easy targets as I outlined above - if you don't want to get killed make it more difficult for the enemy to kill you! Surely the fact that you're safer if you're in the IDF than a civilian is an irony that's not lost on you!?

No, Israel has no particular right to exist - certainly not at the expense of Palestine, which is what has happened. Even the Native Americans have more right to independent nations that Israel IMO! But the fact is we're stuck with it now that it has been created...

It is a country recognized by the UN, and existant because of a resolution on the matter.

Only about half of it! And only because the World felt sorry for the plight of the Jews, what about the Kurds or the Native Americans for example?

Even at its creation, the surrounding Arab states and the Palestinians attempted to wipe it out in a war of destruction.

So might you if your own homeland was stolen right from underneath you!!! It's not like it was an uninhabited wasteland! Geez!

It is a land earnt with the blood of those who have defended it, and by right.

NO! Those that tried to defend it were kicked off, murdered and forced to flee for their lives to live as refugees for the next 50+ years! It was their right to defend it and they lost out to superior firepower!

These same neighbours pass the buck on the Palestinians, who were encouraged to leave and live in "temporary" camps by the neighbouring states, and then pushed about. They were not forced to leave Israel by the Israelis. Many remain. Theirs is a tragic tale, but it does not excuse terrorism.

I think you'll find most were 'encouraged' to leave because of attacks by the Israelis - something Sharon figured in highly with Qibya etc... Funny how they're not allowed to return to their homes now...?

If 97% is not a fair offer, then your definition isn vastly different from that of most upright mammals. It was the best and fairest that they would ever get, and it was refused for craven political purposes.

Nothing less than 100% is fair IMO - I'm sure that if each shop you bought something in only gave back 97% of your change you'd feel a little pissed off! Tell you what, why don't you give me 3% of your wages, seeing as you don't need it... Better still, how about donating it to charity - how about B'Tselem, I'm sure they be happy to receive the odd thousand dollars or so that 3% of an average person's wage would be...

Also, 3% of what? That mere 3% could hold all the really valuable pieces of land, like the roads criss-crossing the West Bank and cutting it into pieces for instance - or the settlements like Hebron, slap bang in the middle of the West Bank! Then when you consider all the land already absorbed by Israel pre '67 then you're looking more like a figure of 50%... Way to go - steal half a country's land and actually have the cheek to say you're being generous giving the other half back - Puhleeeease!

Arafat sparked this intifada, which has grown out of his control, in order to keep his hold on power. His myriad deficiencies in leadership and other matters would have become inifinitely more apparent.

Nothing to do with Sharon and the Temple Mount episode of course - sure he's allowed to visit the holiest Jewish site, but to choose such a time!!!??? It's a bit like allowing Phalangist militia into a PLO refugee camp the day after their President was assassinated by the very same PLO - it was a calculated act!

He still has the power to suppress the militant extremists, but chooses not to in order to preserve his own power base and position.

Yeah right - it was reported as almost civil war when he tried to crack down last month! Pull the other one! It is a fact that back in the eighties Israel actually supported and nurtured some of these factions in an attempt to destabilise Arafat and the PLO after he'd had to leave the Lebanon...

In terms of Israeli security policy, the targetting of known terrorists who are engaged in or planning terrorist activity is simple pre emptive self defence. Maybe they should be allowed to mount attacks and explode bombs in pizza shops before they are brought to justice.

If they know so much about them they could be apprehended at the border! It's funny how the majority of these assassinations occur during times of relative quiet such as this latest incident - it seems to the casual observer to be a calculated act to cause incitement!

As to troops shooting at rioters, the riots are used as cover for further activities and for sniping. Should the troops merely stand there politely and have rocks and worse thrown at them?

Happened all the time in Northern Ireland, but then we were far more civilised in dealing with the crowd by firing rubber bullets (which also did kill people from time to time!) and NOT live rounds except maybe Bloody Sunday, which in Israel would have been almost a routine day. Of the people killed during the troubles, about 10% were actually killed by British forces as opposed to the 60+% casualties caused by the IDF...

As for shooting to kill, it is a sensible policy. It is of a greater degree of difficulty to shoot to wound, and with modern assault rifle rounds, the damage is significant anyway. If they did shoot to wound or incapacitate, there would be an uproar about deliberate torture. The biggest target is the torso, and a shot there has a great likelihood of taking down your target.

So you applaud intentionally killing teenager rock throwers who have a next to zero chance of inflicting damage to the IDF??? You call my views disgusting and yet you're quite happy condoning the murder of young boys!!? Didn't take much to let that righteous mantle of yours slip - you seem to have a mentality little better than that of a violent thug shooting stray dogs!

On several different occasions, the attempts at ceasefires have been broken by Palestinian action; by actions ordered by those who have more to lose in peace than in continued war; the terrorist leaders who know nothing else, and whose power and privilege arises from their aptitude at murder.

In the most part an entire ceasefire process has been brought down by the actions of several fanatics in a nation of millions!!! Frankly that says more of Sharon's unwillingness to end the Intifada more if he lets them speak for the 99.9999% who stay at home and observe the ceasefire!

As to the so called assassinations of terrorists, this is not the case. Those deemed to be an imminent threat and danger are tried in absentsia, and only then are they pre emptively taken out. This is done in a way that puts the least risk to IDF personnel as possible; there is no fair play in it, just reality. Why use a squad on the ground when there are missiles.

Much of the time it is 'forces on the ground' who strike - if they can pick their targets so easily then they can capture them. I think a high profile trial of a few captured terrorists would be far more effective than martyring the next one, and the next one, ad infinitum... These fanatics are more than happy to die for their cause, but are they so willing to live for it - behind bars for the rest of their lives!!?

You are correct to an extent by calling it "*** for tat", but to say that this was spawned by one event is not looking at it deep enough. Why was the terrorist leader killed? For terrorist actions which killed Israelis.

Well you only have to go as far back as the Balfour Document, which was the vital foot in the door for the Zionist movement IMO...

It is only being used as an excuse to stage further attacks by the brave martyrs who attack dangerous targets like a 13 year old girl's bat mitzvah party with M16s, grenades and explosives.
The terrorist leadership needs to be utterly taken out, regardless of the gasps of horror from those divorced from the immediate situation.

I agree, round up the terrorists and try them for the murderous criminals they are - but don't add legitimacy to their cause by assassinating them! For every one you kill, five probably take their place - it's not working!

Peace takes two committed sides, and Arafat is not committed to controlling his people. He could, but does not.
.

Yeah right - all it takes is someone to fire a gun in the air and Sharon calls off the ceasefire and runs the tanks into town. That's how committed he is!

This latest terrorist was an ex Palestinian Authority Policeman. He cannot even control his immediate people

DUH! Emphasis on the word 'ex'!

Well given that Israel is systematically destroying the Palestinian economy and infrastructure - is it any wonder that previously moderate people are becoming involved? I still remember that bus driver who'd been driving the same route for 20 yrs - then one day he snapped and ploughed into a crowd of people killing about a half dozen or so... The ordinary people of Palestine are being snapped to breaking point, with each passing day they have less and less to live for! Is it any wonder...

But, in doing so, condemning the very right of Israel to exist does go beyond the pale.

I say it has no more right to exist than any other nation that has been conquered for the past 2000 years - that is all... What about the people that lived there before then? Quick - let's ressurect the Roman Empire!

To claim the "Zionists" "invaded" Palestine is to twist history, and to portray it incorrectly.

Why?

You said that both sides are at fault, and I would agree that neither is blameless, but Israel is reacting terrorist attacks on its very existence.

Or perhaps because of it's occupation of the WB & GS? The only fault I find with the Palestinians are some of their targets and their locations...

And as we well know from recent events, if you do not respond to these heinous acts in a strong manner, they will increase rather than desist.

That is BS - the Northern Ireland peace process (with the odd hiccup!) proves it!

I do not think so highly of myself as to presume that I have all the answers for this most troubled area, when they have eluded men and women for so many years, but I do know certain things. I do know what is right, and what is wrong. And the existance of Israel is right, and trying to destroy it is wrong.

Why is the existence of Israel right - it was dead for 2000 years!

I'm not talking about destroying it - it's here to stay, it's just the manner of it's existence that concerns me...

[faded glory]

wow look at that!

Holy Sh!t MOBIUS

You cant argue with that! Its too damn long..

[Jules]

The Theory of the Flank Redux

First, I must confess that I'm shocked by many of MOBIUS's comments. But considering the recent horrific suicide attack that claimed the lives of innocent Israelis and the ensuing escalation of the "finger-pointing" campaign (Apolyton included ), his frustration is understandable and shared I'm sure by all of us. It's the feelings of powerlessness in the midst of such a terrible crisis that frustrate us, and often in such moments tempers will flare. But when these feelings of paralysis seize hold of those who are supposed to be in positions of power (such as Ariel "But he hit me first" Sharon and Yasser "My head hurts; I think I'll go lie down for a while" Arafat), the consequences are tragic for Jews and Palestinians alike.

In times of crisis, the human response is not to be found in the infantile displays of the media-grabbing spokespersons for both Israel and the Palestinian Authority ("They started it! No, they did!" or "Look at me, ma, I'm the world champion of doublespeak!"). Rather, human greatness is located on the higher plane of Reason whereby the creative human mind, confronted by a seemingly paradoxical situation, successfully generates the hypothesis which overcomes the paradox. Through sharing this discovery with others and then working cooperatively to bring it into reality, the human individual in effect changes the outcome of history. It is this quality, cognition, which sets humankind absolutely apart from all other forms of life, and is the means by which we achieve Freedom over Necessity. It is the act of cognition which makes ALL human beings in the living image of God the Creator (a principle around which Christians, Jews, and [yes!] even Muslims can come together in unity).

And so a great leader must proceed thus, armed with Reason and motivated by the supreme passion of agape (love for all of his/her fellow human beings), and in the process is elevated by history to the level of the sublime. This quality of leadership is exemplified by such figures as Jesus Christ, Joan of Arc, Moses Mendelssohn, Benjamin Franklin, Abraham Lincoln, Franklin Roosevelt, John F. Kennedy, Martin Luther King, Anwar Sadat, and Yitzhak Rabin.

Consider the case of a great military commander faced with a seemingly impossible enemy, who must in that moment summon from within him a course of action upon which hinges the total victory or utter defeat of the nation. What does he do? Give up and go home? Escape into a Hollywood fantasyland of "Harry Potter" and "Lord of the Rings" insanity? Or worse, does he, like Lee on the third day of Gettysburg, send Pickett on a futile charge against the Union center and thereby commit vainglorious suicide as Ariel Sharon intends to do in preferring the religious fanaticism of Hamas as a "peace partner" over Arafat's PA?!

Thankfully, there is a much better way out for the commander who listens to his Reason instead of blindly yielding to his fear and sense of powerlessness. The lesson of Graf von Schlieffen's "Cannae: The Principle of the Flank" is that victory ultimately rests with the mind of the superior commander, by "discovering" the course of action which his opponent believes to be impossible and is therefore unprepared to counter (in short, a strategic flank). It was according to this principle that von Schlieffen designed his "hammer", a massive flanking move through Belgium designed to quickly defeat Britain and France in the West, then utilize Germany's superior transportation infrastructure to rush forces to the East in time to defeat the Russians who would be slower to mobilize. It fell to Helmut von Moltke to implement the "Schlieffen Plan" in 1914, but he lost his nerve and failed to provide the necessary force concentrations in the West, preferring instead to minimize risk by diverting forces to guard against a phantom Russian attack from the East. It was in that moment of vacillation by von Moltke that the First World War was lost.

Today in the Middle East, we have leaders who are either too stubborn or too afraid (maybe a little bit of both) to take the risks necessary for peace. Media commentators foolishly remark, "Well, the Israelis and Palestinians know they have to someday make peace, so the best thing we can do is to leave them alone." They imagine that peace will somehow make itself, perhaps delivered by some supernatural agency akin to Adam Smith's "Invisible Hand" (or perhaps the fundie millenarian's Antichrist?). Perhaps a sixth decade of misery and violence with thousands more innocent lives lost and many times more children growing up with no future will lessen the desire to take revenge, which was the essence of Ehud Barak's remarks to CNN's Paula Zahn following the terrible weekend suicide bombings in December ("In ten years the Palestinians will have a leader, and we will be willing to make peace" [I'm sure I paraphrased that a bit]). Hey, it works in Star Wars, right?! Use the Force, Yasser!

How must we outflank these enemies?

The solution I propose is not new. I've offered it on numerous occasions in the ME threads and elsewhere on the OT forum. Many of you I know are probably sick to death of hearing it, but I'll mention it again in the hope that at least one person might be persuaded.

Peace between Jews and Palestinians will begin to become possible only when the material preconditions for such a peace are brought into existence. That means economic development of the entire region. Times of prosperity tend to make people more tolerant of ethnic and religious differences, and perhaps more willing to forgive past crimes.

Now, unlike MOBIUS, I don't question the existence of Israel, nor do I question the manner of its existence. It's like questioning the presence of African-Americans in North America, or questioning the existence of the United States on the grounds that its territory once belonged to Native Americans. What's done is done. We can't change the past but we can certainly change the future. So Israel exists and must continue to exist. And Israel's crimes (and those of Arabs too), as of this moment, exist in the past. But let's consider the Arab point of view.

The UN partition of Palestine in 1948 roughly coincided with the end of Anglo-French colonialism in the Middle East (if my facts are off, feel free to correct me, but I don't think there's any loss of generality). Economic conditions were already difficult for the existing inhabitants, but now the UN was proposing to create a state of Jewish immigrants. So there was going to be even less to go around. And that essentially I think is the heart of this conflict: more mouths to feed where it was already hard enough to feed everyone. The problem is not the existence of Israel. They simply ignored development. Sure, you can dress it up with ethnicity and religion, but it ultimately derives from the alienating conception of different cultures thrown together to compete over dwindling resources. Suppress the idea that different cultures can cooperate to develop new technologies that generate new resources and create more wealth for everyone; throw in petty ethnic and religious squabbles that only seem to matter when you're poor; add to that a Western "Great Satan" of former colonial oppressors who set Israel up in business; then you have a recipe for war. Let's also not forget that we have an international monetary system (oddly enough, dominated by Western powers) that is hostile to the very notion of providing credit for the kinds of long-term infrastructure projects necessary to provide the backbone for a prosperous future Middle East economy.

How does this bring peace you ask? Well, it's like any well-defined system of geometry. You start out with some axioms, definitions, postulates from which you derive by deduction an internally consistent theorem-lattice. So if you alter the axiomatic foundation for the geometry (by either adding or subtracting an axiom) you will then generate a new set of theorems and hence a new geometry.

So if we change the assumptions of Middle East policymaking from existence/non-existence of Israel (which we can't change) to how can we develop the economic potential of the entire Middle East (which we can change), then several things should (IF this is done correctly) fall into place. First, the recognition of the State of Israel due to its unique relationship to the West as a conduit for advanced technology needed to supply development projects in the rest of the region. Second, understanding on the part of Arab countries that the success of the economic program depends upon cooperation with Israel. This means: serious commitment to cracking down on terror and extremist groups, eliminating anti-Semitic propaganda-->peace with security for Israel. Third, a viable Palestinian state made possible through the creation of basic economic infrastructure (soft: education and health care; hard: power, transportation, water management)-->affluent and educated population-->less corrupt regime. Growing prosperity can eventually lead to the resolution of thorny issues such as control over Jerusalem, settlements, and exact borders of the Palestinian state--compromise is much easier when people are happy and getting along. There can even be a "right of return" for Palestinian refugees since a more prosperous region will be better able to absorb a growing population, not to mention increased demand for labor.

Now I admit this is a broad overview of how things might work, but for people with expertise in these matters it's worth thinking about how to work out the fine details. But one thing is certain: none of this is possible without the cooperation and intervention of outsiders like the United States, Russia, and the EU. This only works if it's a global effort.

So to recap the theory of the flank, victory in any human endeavor depends upon employing creative Reason to locate that course of action which the opponent is not prepared to face, and then summoning the necessary courage to risk making it a reality. That is the quality of a great leader. That is the essence of the sublime potential that resides within all human beings no matter what their specific talents may be. That is what makes a human being in the living image of the Creator. That is Freedom.

Recognize also that we cannot change the past. True, we can acknowledge that the past could have been handled differently (better) than it was. But what we can do is take the knowledge that we are handed from the past and give it to the future in the form of a changed (improved) outcome of history. To do that takes agape; it requires love. So in that sense, none of us are really powerless in this time of crisis.


Lyndon LaRouche Webcast, January 24: "Continue the American Revolution!"

http://www.larouchepub.com

[Jules]

In hindsight, I should've included Mahatma Gandhi as another example of a sublime personality. No disrespect intended.

*has been writing for over 8 hours*

[Faeelin]

It's ironic how Mobius says that child and her family deserved to die for "voting" for Sharon.
Naturally, the people on the Lockerbie bombing deserved to die, as did all those who were killed by the IRA.
Sorry, the arguement's flawed. Israel's shown marked restraint; if a nation started launching terrorist attacks against birthday parties (closest analogy to a bar mitzvah for most of the us, maybe sweet sixteen's better) in the USA, that nation would cease to exist by the end of the year. There seems to be a growing attitude in most of the western nations, specifically australia, canada, america, and the uk, to just let israel do what they want, since half measures obviously aren't working.

Oh, and here's a question Mobius: if the irish government started blowing up restaurants, reception halls, buses, and deploying katyushas against london, how would the UK respond?

[KrazyHorse]

What country is launching terrorist attacks against Israel?

Any time Israel feels like it in can put its troops anywhere in the PA with the only resistance coming from stone-throwing youths. If the PA is a country then Israel's invaded it on dozens and dozens of occasions already. If they liquidate Arafat's entire government, then I doubt it will make a lick of difference to the Palestinian ability to attack Israeli targets.

But go ahead anyway. There's a military solution to everything.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
What country is launching terrorist attacks against Israel?

Iran, Syria, etc.

If the PA is a country then Israel's invaded it on dozens and dozens of occasions already.

It very well could have been had Arafat had any sense and compromised as much as the Isrealis were at Camp David II. Now the entire area has to suffer the consequences of Arafat's incompetence.

[Eli]

And now Arafat claims that the Karine A was bringing construction materials from Romania to Israel.

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by MOBIUS
Strictly speaking Israel should withdraw to it's original UN demarcated borders - but again we all know that's not going to happen...

It's not our fault the arabs invaded.

My, albeit arbitrary, solution would be to return territory (that's 100%) to the pre 1967 borders - now I say arbitrary, because I would support that because that's about the best the Palestinians are EVER likely to get! But then I'm not some Palestinian who was terrorised out of the Palestinian portion of greater Israel in 1948... So those people should either be allowed to return (fat chance!) or be adequately compensated in today's values for the land and possessions they lost!

The people who left Israel prior to the war left on their own.
The people who left during the war and those who were deported left on the account of the war - the war was started by the Arabs and therefore it's their responsibility to compensate the refugees.

Had the several hundred thousands of refugees not pro-created into 4,000,000 it would have been reasonable for them to return. However this number is unreasonable, for Israel can hardly support that many more people, and wishes to keep a jewish majority.

They were attack because they were an easy target, the problem with the IDF from a terrorist POV is that they are more than capable of defending themselves and therefore not a very attractive target...

So you are infact justifying the attack of innocent civilians.

Great

I just think the government of Israel has it's head so far up it's own arse that it is oblivious to the fact that the more Palestinians/terrorists it kills the more that population becomes blinded by rage and attacks those it can most easily reach (the innocent).

And your solution would be to constantly please terrorists and submit to their demands.

That attitude was proven wrong in WWII when Hitler attacked even though his prior demands were met.

Appeasement works with rational groups, not with terrorists.

The reason why the onus is on Israel is because it is the one who wields the power (like a gigantic mallet!) and it is the one that is illegally occupying Palestinian territory!

This is not really Palestinain territory.
It was previously controlled by Jordan, and in that time there were no claims by lefties such as yourself that the Palestinian land is occupied.

When will they realise that their current policies are not working and that maybe they should try something different?

Please try to recall why were the 1967 territories liberated in the first place. Terror. Arab terrorists shot from rifles and mortars ontu Israeli civilians, cars and buildings.

To stop that and prevent further threat from those lands, Israel decided to conquer the west bank illegally occupied by Jordan.

That's cause you're too dumb to realise that that is not what I mean - another crude attempt to put words into my mouth...

I think you're too dumb to realise what you mean.

That Sharon is in power is the will of the 'majority' of people - that is not every Israeli, it is fatuous of you to suggest that it is...

And yet you suggest that it is every Israeli since you justify the terrorist murder of innocent Israeli civilians when you claim "they voted Sharon".

Yes and the sooner that the Israeli government realises it and changes their tactics the better! See, even someone like you would be a worthy addition to the Israeli cabinet - because they don't seem to!

You seem to have a misconception about the Israeli cabinet.

You seem to think, like the popular view of Nazis and anti-semitic Arabs, that Jews/Jewish leaders only want to drink the blood of little children and torture little Palestinians to death.

However, in all actions all possible implications are taken into account. And while it is very unfortunate the Palestinian civilians suffer as a result of Israeli actions, Israel's first and foremost concern is, and should be, the safety and well-being of Israeli civlians and not anyone else.

They were easy targets as I outlined above - if you don't want to get killed make it more difficult for the enemy to kill you!

Exactly!

So you do understand the reason why closures and curfews are instated by the IDF on palestinian territories which are known to be a base of operations for terrorists.

You could argue, that the best possible answer would be withdrawal. Technically - it is. However it should hit you in the head, at one time or another, that constantly withdrawing in a war is not the real way for victory.

It's the same for the war with terror. While the western armies "withdrawed" from Afghanistan, it was a haven for terrorists. Now finally a humane and benevolent govt. is being re-enstated.

Surely the fact that you're safer if you're in the IDF than a civilian is an irony that's not lost on you!?

It is very ironic and not really correct.

However, the fact that Israeli civlians are targets of terror should cast a dark shadow in your eyes over the Palestinian political tactics. Somehow, it doesn't.

[Sirotnikov]

No, Israel has no particular right to exist - certainly not at the expense of Palestine, which is what has happened.

Not correct.

The UN recognizes the right of every ethnicity to exist in a self ruling independent country. It's the basic freedom of a person to define himself.

Even the Native Americans have more right to independent nations that Israel IMO!

Quite sad.

But the fact is we're stuck with it now that it has been created...

Exactly. And Israel does not intend to give in to rogue forces who wish it's destruction, such as Yassir Arafat who proved his intention more than once, and stated it more than once, prior to his becoming a good politician (liar).

Only about half of it! And only because the World felt sorry for the plight of the Jews, what about the Kurds or the Native Americans for example?

The world feels sorry for the plight of kurds as well, but they have no real means of supporting or creating their country. The Jews developed such means.

So might you if your own homeland was stolen right from underneath you!!! It's not like it was an uninhabited wasteland! Geez!

Reality check:

The western parts of Israel were mostly exactly that - uninhabited swampland. The swamps were drained during the 1880s through 1910s.

It is also a matter of fact that most of the Palestinians who lived in Israel in the end of the 40s, were also immigrants into Israel, who came as a result of the economic opportunities brought by Jeiwsh emigration, and later made stronger by Brittish rule.

NO! Those that tried to defend it were kicked off, murdered and forced to flee for their lives to live as refugees for the next 50+ years! It was their right to defend it and they lost out to superior firepower!

Israel was declared with accordance to the UN acknowlegement yet with no declared borders.

When Arabs attacked, Jews defended Israel. Many Jews who lived in the west bank were kicked off and parts were massacared by invading Arab forces. After the war, no Jews remained in the west bank and Jerusalem. After the war and during it, Jews were persecuted, massacared and driven out of Arab countries where they lived, such as Iraq, Iran, Jordan, Syria, Yemen etc.

I think you'll find most were 'encouraged' to leave because of attacks by the Israelis - something Sharon figured in highly with Qibya etc... Funny how they're not allowed to return to their homes now...?

A) Most were infact encouraged to leave because of promises made by the Trans-Arab union to reclaim the lands allocated to Israel to the Arabs and drive Arabs into the sea.

B) If Israel encouraged all Arabs to leave by means of violence, it conflicts with the fact that 150,000 Arabs stayed happily in Israel, and are now 1 Million people. Not massacared or persecuted, unlike Jews who lived in Arab countries.

C) You ignore the facts of the matter in Qibya. Qibya was used as a major weapons stock. IDF forces evacuated all occupants of the village and only then blew the houses up. However, it was discovered that a group of Arabs that was hiding in one of the buildings avoided discovery and therefore was not rescued before the blowing up of buildings.

D) Sharon's leadership of the act is irrelevant.

Nothing less than 100% is fair IMO - I'm sure that if each shop you bought something in only gave back 97% of your change you'd feel a little pissed off!

If previously when you had 100% change in 1967 you used to shoot the the shop keepers, I think it's only reasonable they'd hesitate giving you your full change back.

Tell you what, why don't you give me 3% of your wages, seeing as you don't need it...

Non-sequitor.

Better still, how about donating it to charity - how about B'Tselem, I'm sure they be happy to receive the odd thousand dollars or so that 3% of an average person's wage would be...

Non-sequitor.

Also, 3% of what? That mere 3% could hold all the really valuable pieces of land, like the roads criss-crossing the West Bank and cutting it into pieces for instance - or the settlements like Hebron, slap bang in the middle of the West Bank!

Hebron, FYI is one of the more ancient cities in Israel and exists since biblical times. It is one of the most sacred Jewish cities, yet now it is occupied by Arabs. Like Jerusalem, it was occupied by Jews prior to 1948, but they were driven out and massacared by Arab armies.

Then when you consider all the land already absorbed by Israel pre '67 then you're looking more like a figure of 50%...

Wrong.

If you consider all Israel to be palestinian property then you're highly delusional. Most of Israel was infact not-settled by anyone other than small vagabond groups prior to 1880. Western Israel was a wasteland mainly covered with sands and swamps, which were cleared and drained during the 1880s to 1910s.

Way to go - steal half a country's land and actually have the cheek to say you're being generous giving the other half back - Puhleeeease!

You really ought to read history rather than rely on statesment by Palestinian propoganda.

Nothing to do with Sharon and the Temple Mount episode of course - sure he's allowed to visit the holiest Jewish site, but to choose such a time!!!???

What exactly a time was that?

It was a time after the failure of Camp David and during the beginning of new dialogue between Arafat and Barak.

Furthermore, if you acknowledge that Sharon's visit is infact irrelevant to the outbreak of the intifada, you admit that it would have happenned even if something else would have happenned in that time, since infact it was the time that mattered.

The fact is that Arafat chose a time to start the intifada, and Sharon's visit only provided him with a pre-text.

[Sirotnikov]

It's a bit like allowing Phalangist militia into a PLO refugee camp the day after their President was assassinated by the very same PLO - it was a calculated act!

It was not a calculated fact and it was ruled by two courts.

One was the Israeli comission who investigated into the acts, and layed blame for neglagence mostly on Israel's intelligence forces, punishing several commanders. Sharon was found guilty of not judging the matter correcly and therefore was banned from the post of Defense Minister.

An american newspaper later claimed that a secret close in the comission's verdict says that the action was planned and calculated.

Sharon sued the newspaper, and after the full verdict was disclosed to the newspaper writers and editors they admited they were wrong.

Yeah right - it was reported as almost civil war when he tried to crack down last month! Pull the other one!

It was happily reported that way by pro-Arafat BBC.

Yet in reality, Arafat's regime never came under threat, and when it did, several months ago, Arafat's police happily shot live bullets into palestinian crowds.

[q]It is a fact that back in the eighties Israel actually supported and nurtured some of these factions in an attempt to destabilise Arafat and the PLO after he'd had to leave the Lebanon...[/quote]
Your claim is both ignorant and idiotic.

Arafat was never until the 90s considered a real and rightfull leader for Palestine by all palestinians. His rule of the PLO was by force, not by election.

And as for your claims, they're unfounded. Never had I read or heard of such idiotic things. If you care to bring a source which can be relied upon (hence no Islam-online.com) I'd be happy to read.

If they know so much about them they could be apprehended at the border!

And infact many of them were apprehended at the border, yet no international network finds it worth screen time.

Many were arrested in incursions. You're all mad about it, but it has to be done when the PLO does not arrest the terrorists. So we enter, arrest and leave. This also gets no CNN screen time.

However, it is infact very diffcult to predict the exact time and path of the terrorist who is the bomber. It is also useless. This is why Israel chooses to eliminate the managers, recruiters and planners of these events.

It's funny how the majority of these assassinations occur during times of relative quiet such as this latest incident - it seems to the casual observer to be a calculated act to cause incitement!

The relative quiet is not real but rather a feeling brought by CNN and BBC not repoting events with less than 4 casualties.

Furthermore, the several recent eliminations were cases of ticking bombs - there was specific knowledge of terracts being planned.

Infact, the day before, an Islamic Jihad bomber terrorist was captured on his way inside Israel. But it got no screen time.

Happened all the time in Northern Ireland, but then we were far more civilised in dealing with the crowd by firing rubber bullets (which also did kill people from time to time!)

Which also happenned very often in Israel.

and NOT live rounds except maybe Bloody Sunday, which in Israel would have been almost a routine day.

I'm very doubtful that live bullets were only used one time.

Furthermore, the riots were infact more peacefull than those in Israel, and less widespread.

Of the people killed during the troubles, about 10% were actually killed by British forces

What killed the other 90% ?

as opposed to the 60+% casualties caused by the IDF...

60% of the casualties were caused by the IDF. I assume you call every Israeli force IDF since infact IDF did not take part in quelling most riots, but police and special border police did.

I'd also like a source for that information.

That means that there were other people shooting and the rest 40% were killed by armed rioters.

I'd be very happy if the account of people killed by rioters would be 0.

Furthermore, in a riot, the rioters take full responsability upon themselves to face law-keeping forces and by creating a situation risking other people's lives understand that they will be dealt with forcefully.

Therefore rioters can not be considered innocent civilians.

So you applaud intentionally killing teenager rock throwers who have a next to zero chance of inflicting damage to the IDF???

Not one word in his text suggests killing teenager rock throwers, but infact talks about targets in general.

The targets were always armed and usually masked palestinian gunmen with assault rifles and molotovs. However due to the fact they use teenagers as protection, teenagers often got hurt.

Furthermore, it is very easy for a wounded gunmen, to take off his mask, give away his weapon and instanteneously become a "civlian".

You call my views disgusting and yet you're quite happy condoning the murder of young boys!!?

Nice try to take his words out of context.

Won't work though.

Didn't take much to let that righteous mantle of yours slip - you seem to have a mentality little better than that of a violent thug shooting stray dogs!

You just can't shut up when you're on a roll can ya?

In the most part an entire ceasefire process has been brought down by the actions of several fanatics in a nation of millions!!!

It is not really a ceasefire process since the Palestinians were infact continuing to kill Israelis.

Also, they were arming themselves for continuation of hostilities and tying alliances with Iran as proved by the capture of "Karin A" ship carrying 50 tons of weapons.

Frankly that says more of Sharon's unwillingness to end the Intifada more if he lets them speak for the 99.9999% who stay at home and observe the ceasefire!

Sharon does not target the 80% who stay at home and observe the cease fire. They get hurt because it's a tight area and when targetting the 20% you often hit innocent people as well. It's sad, but not replying forcefully to agression is unthinkable.

[Sirotnikov]

Much of the time it is 'forces on the ground' who strike - if they can pick their targets so easily then they can capture them.

Incorrect. In Assassinations missiles are used inorder not to risk people.

It's much easier to kill a person that to arrest him.

When you arrest him, troops are involved and must face resistance and plan a way out. To eliminate one using a misile is easier.

And still, compared to the several dozens Israel eliminated, there have been over 1,500 arrested and growing!!

I think a high profile trial of a few captured terrorists would be far more effective than martyring the next one, and the next one, ad infinitum...

This is incorrect.

A trial is just as martyring as killing.

Furthermore, there have been several high-profile trials, who were covered by Israeli media, yet not by CNN and BBC.

These fanatics are more than happy to die for their cause, but are they so willing to live for it - behind bars for the rest of their lives!!?

This is a problematic strategy since when they live, their comrades use terror to get them out.

Infact, Israel during the peace talks, freed many lebanese and palestinain terrorists out of jails, hoping that now that there's a peace process they'll leave their ways, and terror acts meant to put pressure to free the jailed terrorists would halt.

However this didn't happen and those realeased soon reverted to terror.

Infact, most of those eliminated by Israel were at one point or another in prison in Israel, but were released during peace talks, in hope that it would stop terracts for revenge.

Well you only have to go as far back as the Balfour Document, which was the vital foot in the door for the Zionist movement IMO...

How is that related to his post?

If you want to go back to terror roots - go back to the Arab massacare of Jews in 1929 and the riots in 1929.

I agree, round up the terrorists and try them for the murderous criminals they are - but don't add legitimacy to their cause by assassinating them!

There is no real difference in trialing them or assassinating them.
If you trial them, this does nothing to convince new recruits that they're wrong. Only gives them more reason to commit terror in hope to "free" the jailed ones.

For every one you kill, five probably take their place - it's not working!

For every one we kill we arrest 30.

Furthermore, we do not kill the drones, but rather the planners, therefore: for everyone we kill, 10 terracts are prevented.

Yeah right - all it takes is someone to fire a gun in the air and Sharon calls off the ceasefire and runs the tanks into town. That's how committed he is!

Incorrect.
You probably think that Israelis are birds, because when Israelis are killed you say the pals are firing into the air.

DUH! Emphasis on the word 'ex'!

EX does not mean he was fired for bad behaviour. Many of the recent terrorists were infact in service.

Furthermore, such people should be jailed, not let go.

Well given that Israel is systematically destroying the Palestinian economy and infrastructure - is it any wonder that previously moderate people are becoming involved?

Israel is putting economical pressure on palestine since all the palestinian taxes go towards sponsoring terror, and arms purchase by Arafat.

I still remember that bus driver who'd been driving the same route for 20 yrs - then one day he snapped and ploughed into a crowd of people killing about a half dozen or so...

And had the Intifada wasn't started by Arafat, but rather peacetalks would resume, even after camp david, he would be live and well.

The ordinary people of Palestine are being snapped to breaking point, with each passing day they have less and less to live for! Is it any wonder...

Why do they have less to live for?

Because Arafat is taking away hope.

Arafat chose to distance himself from peace and proved his "strive" for peace was merely a diversion for gaining political and military power.

He chose to end camp david without any result.

He chose to start an intifada instead of going towards further peace talks.

He chose to release the same terrorists that he now claims he is trying to arrest.

I say it has no more right to exist than any other nation that has been conquered for the past 2000 years - that is all... What about the people that lived there before then? Quick - let's ressurect the Roman Empire!

Had the roman people were still alive and a one nation today, and moreso being persecuted for their ethnicity, I'd support it 100%.

I support a state for the kurds.

I don't know why the hell do the basques and the catalonians want to seperate from spain, but if they do - I support them as well.

Why?

Because it is not correct, that's why.

Read history books and not Islam-online.com .

Or perhaps because of it's occupation of the WB & GS?

It's occupation of the WB & GS came in the first palce as a response to threat on it's existance by Arab terrorists who used the territories to terrorize Israelis within the green line.

The only fault I find with the Palestinians are some of their targets and their locations...

some of their targets?
How do you choose which Israeli child was rightfully or wrongfully killed? Dice?

That is BS - the Northern Ireland peace process (with the odd hiccup!) proves it!

Your claim is BS.
The Ireland peace process is different since the peace process has support of the non-extreme majority.

In Arafat-land however, the common ahmed has no say. Arafat decides the day's agenda, and gives green light to Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and his own Fatah and Tanzim forces to commit terror.

Why is the existence of Israel right - it was dead for 2000 years!

Because jews remained as a people and ethnicity and wanted to have their own nation, and that is one of the basic human rights as defined by the UN.

Let's rephrase your stupidity:
"Why is the existance of Palestine right? There was never a real palestine nation since the creation of the human race?

I'm not talking about destroying it - it's here to stay, it's just the manner of it's existence that concerns me...

But you have deep troubles in understanding it's existance and you support elements which fool you - they pretend to be peacefull when infact they wish to eliminate Israel.

I will not allow these elements to do so.

And it's your problem that you're too pathetic to understand their act.