Israel I'm getting a clear picture

[Az]

Keygen, that was a counter-troll.

paiktis knows that I don't mean it seriously.

yeah, right

probably a person from a family of expatriates . we plant guilt so deeply in those people that it has transformed into a hereditary trait

[KrazyHorse]

The weird part is he isn't Jewish.



































Just kidding.

[Eli]

The murder of the 70 years old American guy looks more and more like lynching. Before he was shot, numerous people beat him, and the IDF claims that Palestinian policeman did nothing to stop it.

[monolith94]

"Were these houses shelters for anything?"

Generally houses are considered shelters for people.

I have no sympathy whatsoever for revenge, and therefore no sympathy for either Palestine or Israel. They are both at fault, although perhaps Israel moreso for having provoked by letting Sharon go tramping around on Muslim HOLY grounds.

Why would he do that? Sharon is little more than a Machiavellian tyrant with an inferiority complex.

I think the whole state of Israel has an inferiority complex, possiby not all, I don't know.

[chequita guevara]

I imagine trying to hold back all of the various Palestinian terrorist groups is like trying to herd cats through a river. Most bolt, the one's that you get in the water resent it, and while you're chasing the others, the wet ones climb back ashore.

Israel, here's a tip, if you want cease fires to hold, you have to give them more time to get all the various groups in line and don't go blowing people up.

[Eli]

An Israeli woman was murdered in Pisgat Zeev in another shooting teract.

[Natan]

Originally posted by Guardian
Of course there's a difference, but that's not the point here.
The point - my point, anyway - is that I don't see any good reason whatsoever for this kind of behavior

You believe that houses from which shots are fired should be left there because Palestinian houses are more important than Israeli lives?

and they're only making more enemies for themselves... - as if they didn't have enough already!

It seems to me that if you have to make more enemies to defend yourself, you make more enemies - the alternative is death. But let's see, someone may still take Ben-Eliezer up on his offer.

Also, I would ask you to keep in mind that "nazi behavior" isn't necessarily a full-scale massacre.
Long before Auschwitz, they were harrassing and deporting Jews, stealing or destroying their property, kicking them out of their homes in the middle of the night, etc...

1) The Germans were doing this to peaceful Jewish citizens in peacetime.
2) It's the extermination camps which distinguish the Nazis from other regimes. If you resort to the Nazis everytime you don't like a regime, you're cheapening the memory of the Nazis' victims. Calling demolitions of houses (which were quite possibly uninhabited sniper nests) Nazi behavior is like calling imprisonment of criminals Stalinist.

Too late. The other side has already won this round. (A propaganda victory.)
Whether the homes were actually inhabited or not doesn't really matter anymore.
The thing is that people think they were.

That's right. And they always get the propaganda victory, no matter what the facts are, because the Palestinian media are filled with lies. After all, they're already convinced that bake Palestinian blood into their passover matzos, that Israel drops poisoned candy by helicopter to kill Palestinian children, that scantily clad female Israeli soldiers perform a striptease to lure Palestinian "demonstrators" from their barricades before pulling guns from their underwear and shooting them, and that 80% of the tax dollars paid by Americans go to Israel. Israel can't win the propaganda war under these circumstances.


Chegitz: It seems blatantly obvious to me that the PA has no interest in stopping the terrorism in the long term, so there is no more point in letting them work against Hamas then there was in giving the Taliban a chance to find OBL. In terms of your analogy, these terror groups are not just animals, they are rabid animals, and if their owner won't shoot them, the police will.

KH: Does he have any IDF training? If not, he'd be better off leaving the runway space open so that supplies and actual IDF reservists can be brought in.

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by Keygen
I personally always supported the creation of the Islaeli state regardless what the arabic world says. They do deserve to have a country on their own since they were living there from the ancient years and were forced many times to abandon their lands.

Thanks.

The Palestinians are Arabs and Arabs came in Palestine between the 7th and 9th century AD. That's about 1-2 milleniums after the Hebrews first inhabited there (and kicked off the older residents ).

Correction:

Little of the arabs actually settled here.

Most people here remained from ancient times and accepted Islam (or stayed jewish) or Christianity.

Most of the Palestinians, just like most of the jews, immigrated here later than 1880.

But after a millenium of presence, Palestinians do deserve as well to have their own country too. You do know how it is to be without a country. You fought many years for that purpose. Why don't you give some lands to them and recognize them and end the whole story?

Most Israelis do recognzie their need for a country however:
1) Several Israelis believe Jordan is already a palestinian country.
And truth be told, it is. It's an Arab Monarchy ruling a Palestinian majority.
2) Israelis want an agreement that when Pals get a country, they put down their guns and live in peace. Following the recent events, Israelis do not believe the PLO headed by Arafat will do that, and think Arafat is just trying to use the peace process to get land, and will not stop warring with Israeli following it.

With Sharon in lead the only thing you will accomplish is to create more suicidal terrorist hits against innocent Israeli civilians.
What a life!

It is true that fighting terror will create more terrorists.
However not fighting terror will create more terrorists AND hurt Israelis.

I cannot understand why are you refering to Greeks in general. If you have a difference with paiktis refer to him and not to all Greeks! That is very rude and very low...

He was making a joke.
We're on joking terms with Paiktis. He makes fun of the situation by nagging on Israel and pretending to side with the pals following our relations with Turkey.

We pretend to side with Turkey against greece.

We dont' really have anythings against greeks or Paiktis in particular.

Wasn't that the system the Germans were using in World War II? If I remember correctly you didn't like that system back then...

Fighting x10 folds is not what we had a problem with.

We had a problem with extermination of a people for no damn reason that their ethnicity.

Had they not decided to exterminate jews and several other minorities, German jews would fight alongside, just like they did in WWI.

I also would have had no problem had Hitler simply decided to take over land. While it's immoral, I accept that countries and "tribes" have done so and will keep doing so.

I would even had no problem with the persecution of the Jews had the Jews done something. If the Jews really wanted to do something, or would have fought against Hitler or something. But they didn't. They simply wanted to go on with their lives, as German citizens.

Israel, here's a tip, if you want cease fires to hold, you have to give them more time to get all the various groups in line and don't go blowing people up.

But it's fun!!!!

Anyway, firstly he's responsible for quite alot of Israeli deaths.

However the official version is that he blew up on his own, and I'm sticking to it

Generally houses are considered shelters for people.

But the PLO is known to use them as shelter for ammunition and gun stations.

That what happenned in Lebannon.

That's what is hapennig here.

Palestinian terrorists know it's bad press when civilian houses get blown. So they hide their ammo in, and shoot from civilian houses. That way when we respond, it looks bad.

Israel moreso for having provoked by letting Sharon go tramping around on Muslim HOLY grounds.

Gee I can see you're right.

How dare a Jew visit the sites of 2 Jewish temples that were built and destroyed 650 years before muhammad was even born?

Why would he do that? Sharon is little more than a Machiavellian tyrant with an inferiority complex.

1) The Temple Mount is the single holies place in the Jewish religion.

2) Under the Israeli supervision any person, of any ethnicity and religion has the tright to visit Temple Mount since it's sacred to all 3 major religions.

3) Arafat visited Temple mount.

4) As part of religious tolerance, the Muslims have full control of Temple Mount. They are even allowed to expand their mosques, which results in destruction of ancient archeological sites of the Jewish temples.

Don't go! I love you, my hairy Greek friend!

Ditto

How long before Israel starts building gas chambers I wonder....?

Why? You can't wait to share your experience?

I know it's mean, but you trolled and ****ing deserved it!

If it was a joke then I guess it's OK but if not try to avoid categorizing people and whole nations according the nationality of one person you fight with

I love greece!

Just becase they desecrated our temple 2,400 years ago doesn't mean I'm holding some kind of grudge
(joke )

I think the whole state of Israel has an inferiority complex, possiby not all, I don't know

I definitly think the French have an inferiority complex. No matter what happens they try to present themselves as morally just, even when matters have no relation to them.

just my 0.02 $.

[Eli]

A body of an Israeli was found in a vehicle in Samaria. The vehicle had bullet holes on it, so it's probably another shooting teract.

Israel is the only to blame for this situation. After removing some of the roadblocks in Gaza, because of the 4 relatively quiet weeks we had, they managed to kill 4 soldiers and the circle started again.

[Guardian]

Originally posted by Natan

You believe that houses from which shots are fired should be left there because Palestinian houses are more important than Israeli lives?

No, but I do believe that there are other ways to stop the shooting if that's what your problem is. I also seriosuly doubt that shots were fired from each and every one of those houses. If you're going to demolish every building from which somebody might take a shot at you, there won't be much of a country left in the end...

It seems to me that if you have to make more enemies to defend yourself, you make more enemies - the alternative is death.

If you are threatened and the alternative is death, then yes, I agree with you. If - on the other hand - you're already pretty much in control of the situation and you're just out to kick some butt, I'm not so sure that making more enemies is such a brilliant idea...

It's the extermination camps which distinguish the Nazis from other regimes.

In other words: if it doesn't involve extermination camps, then it isn't nazism?
I think you might wish to think this through one more time...

If you resort to the Nazis everytime you don't like a regime, you're cheapening the memory of the Nazis' victims.

Well, by your definition, most of them were never victims of nazism in the first place... (didn't die in the camps...)

[Natan]

Originally posted by Guardian
No, but I do believe that there are other ways to stop the shooting if that's what your problem is. I also seriosuly doubt that shots were fired from each and every one of those houses.

I seriously doubt that any of us possess enough information to draw a conclusion about what happened there and why, let alone draw a moral from it.

If you are threatened and the alternative is death, then yes, I agree with you. If - on the other hand - you're already pretty much in control of the situation and you're just out to kick some butt, I'm not so sure that making more enemies is such a brilliant idea...

Being pretty much in control of the situation and being in danger of death are not mutually exclusive.

In other words: if it doesn't involve extermination camps, then it isn't nazism?
I think you might wish to think this through one more time...

Touche, but I maintain my basic point that property destruction isn't Nazi.

[Guardian]

Originally posted by Natan

I seriously doubt that any of us possess enough information to draw a conclusion about what happened there and why, let alone draw a moral from it.

Agreed. -At which point I guess it might be in order to clarify that it's not my intention to pass judgement on anyone. Just trying to raise some critical questions, that's all. Perhaps I should have been clearer on this from the start. These things are easily misunderstood, I know.

Being pretty much in control of the situation and being in danger of death are not mutually exclusive.

True. -And once again, I'm no judge in this matter. I wasn't there, I don't know what happened and why. If I'd been there, I guess I might have figured that it's better to strike once to often and a little too hard than to risk losing a couple of guys because I didn't deal with the problem...

Touche, but I maintain my basic point that property destruction isn't Nazi.

Not in itself, it isn't. But I maintain my basic point that it could be. It depends on the circumstances...

-But no, I'm not accusing anyone of being nazis. I have merely suggested that a few people may have acted kind of like nazis. That doesn't make them or their government nazis, it just means that perhaps they should look around and think for a moment, and ask themselves if this is the road they need to be on, so to speak.

Perhaps even this was taking it a little too far, and I apologize if I offended anyone. Like I just said, I might have done the same in their place, so I'm no better.

Evil lurks within us all, and it can take many different shapes and disguises.
That's why we always have to watch ourselves... We can never just assume that our side is the right side and can never be wrong, no matter what we do.

If we do that, then we're already a good step on the way to the point where we declare ourselves the "master race" and set out to destroy everyone else in order to prove it.

-And that's nazism.

[Natan]

Originally posted by Guardian
True. -And once again, I'm no judge in this matter. I wasn't there, I don't know what happened and why. If I'd been there, I guess I might have figured that it's better to strike once to often and a little too hard than to risk losing a couple of guys because I didn't deal with the problem...

Also, it should be noted that the other issue was that some of these houses were used to conceal tunnels through which weapons and drugs are smuggled from Egypt. (Rafah is on the Egyptian border)

Not in itself, it isn't. But I maintain my basic point that it could be. It depends on the circumstances...

Many things could be Nazi behavior - but when you start talking about Nazis, people think extermination, so I think it adds unnecessary rhetoric to a discussion to invoke Nazis as an example when other, less extreme examples are available.

-But no, I'm not accusing anyone of being nazis. I have merely suggested that a few people may have acted kind of like nazis. That doesn't make them or their government nazis, it just means that perhaps they should look around and think for a moment, and ask themselves if this is the road they need to be on, so to speak.

I think that if you can still convince a person to consider what they're doing, Nazi comparisons don't ring true.

If we do that, then we're already a good step on the way to the point where we declare ourselves the "master race" and set out to destroy everyone else in order to prove it.

-And that's nazism.

The thing is though, the Nazis weren't saying that their actions were justified by the justness of their cause - they were saying that killing those who were "racially" Slavic, Jewish, or Gypsie was in and of itself good.

[Eli]

5 killed and tens injured in a teract in Hadera. Apparently a terrorist opened fire in a wedding hall, and then either threw a grenade or blew himself up.
Happened only a few minutes ago.

[Eli]

More details :
The guy entered a wedding hall. Threw few grenades and then he was killed by the guard.
4-5 people were killed, and ~20 injured.

Edit : Apparently he only threw grenades, and didnt use other weapons.