Israel I'm getting a clear picture

[Eli]

The Palestinians evacuate all their headquarters, police stations and other facilites.

[Eli]

Since it was a Bat-Mizvah, most of the chances are that there was some proffesional photographer there. So by tommorow we might see the film.

[faded glory]

heard 6 dead and 7 critically injured. 15 others hurt

[Eli]

The non-Israeli networks include the attackers in the number of the dead.
Currently the number of the dead is 4.

What we know now is :
The guy entered the hall, opened fire and started throwing grenades. Then, the guests stormed him, started throwing on him chairs and bottles and dragged him outside the hall, they didnt know that he also had explosives strapped on his body. At this point, two policeman who were patrolling near the nearby mall came, and finished the job with five bullets in his head.

[Eli]

Avi Pazner, an Israeli Goverment spokesman : "We will teach the Palestinians a lesson they will never forget"

Since Yasser Arafat's Fatah movement claimed responsibility, they now afraid that Marwan Bargouti(the leader of the Fatah in the West Bank IIRC) is next on the Israeli hit list.

IMO, if we kill Bargouti the area will deteriorate into a war within a week. The Fatah was somehow restrained until now, if Bargouti is assasinated the Fatah will go completely against Israel. And when the Fatah, the Hamas, the Islamic Jihad and the PFLP cooperate, tens of Israelis die. And when tens of Israelis die, hundreds of Palestinians die.

Edit : The number of the killed is now 6.

[Eli]

Well, at least he suffered.

[Guardian]

Originally posted by Natan

Also, it should be noted that the other issue was that some of these houses were used to conceal tunnels through which weapons and drugs are smuggled from Egypt. (Rafah is on the Egyptian border)

I am aware of that. Some army spokesperson supposedly explained to some reporters that the operation was necessary to seal those tunnels. Sounds like it could be a valid point.

Many things could be Nazi behavior - but when you start talking about Nazis, people think extermination, so I think it adds unnecessary rhetoric to a discussion to invoke Nazis as an example when other, less extreme examples are available.

I think that if you can still convince a person to consider what they're doing, Nazi comparisons don't ring true.

Can't disagree with you here.

The thing is though, the Nazis weren't saying that their actions were justified by the justness of their cause - they were saying that killing those who were "racially" Slavic, Jewish, or Gypsie was in and of itself good.

Not sure if i follow you here...
But be that as it may, do you know why they built so many of those camps in Poland?
It was no coincidence...
You see, when there were no Slavics or Jews or Gypsies left, they planned to start sending "ordinary" Poles into those camps. Over time, the entire population of Poland was to be exterminated - to make room for more Germans.

Nice, huh?

[Eli]

The Israeli response was, as always, pathetic...

An empty building somewhere in Tul-Karem was destroyed. But we wanted to show how strong we are, so we used F-16s that dropped 7 missiles on the building. ****ing baboons.

There was also some tank movement in Rammalah, to scare Arafat. Dont worry, two days without succesfull teracts and the tanks will return.

[Natan]

Originally posted by Guardian


I am aware of that. Some army spokesperson supposedly explained to some reporters that the operation was necessary to seal those tunnels. Sounds like it could be a valid point.

And that's all I'm saying.

Not sure if i follow you here...
But be that as it may, do you know why they built so many of those camps in Poland?
It was no coincidence...
You see, when there were no Slavics or Jews or Gypsies left, they planned to start sending "ordinary" Poles into those camps. Over time, the entire population of Poland was to be exterminated - to make room for more Germans.

Nice, huh?

Not sure if I follow you here . . .
do you know what a Slav is?
(Poles are a slavic people, so the percentage of Poles who were neither Jewish, Gpysie, or Polish and who were also not German must have been negligable) Still, point taken that greed was part of the motive.

[MOBIUS]

Frankly I don't give a damn!

More Israelis killed?

So what - you brought it on yourselves!

While Israel continues to occupy the West Bank and Gaza - THERE WILL BE NO PEACE!

While Israel continues to expand it's illegal settlements in the West Bank and Gaza - THERE WILL BE NO PEACE!

While that War Criminal Ariel Sharon is still in power - THERE WILL BE NO PEACE!

While Israel continues to practice it's discriminatory and apartheid policies - THERE WILL BE NO PEACE!

Both sides may be equally guilty for the current levels of violence, but it was the Zionists who invaded Palestine with the help of their British (actually the British stupidity of signing the Balfour Declaration!) and American allies that are guilty of starting this whole conflict!

Before WWI, Jews and Muslims lived together in Palestine in peace!

Why do the Israelis deserve their own country!!? They lost it two millenia ago! What about the Kurds, or the Native Americans - are they not at least as deserving!!? So where is their country then?

You made you bed - now lie in it!

I feel sorry for all peace loving, moderate Israelis who want to see an end to the bloodshed...

The others who choose to live by the sword can die by the sword for all I care!

The pity of it all is that it's mostly the easy innocent targets of both side that end up getting killed!

[Simon Darkshade]

"More Israelis killed?

So what - you brought it on yourselves"

Tell me, have you ever visited the real world? A civilian target, a damn childrens birthday party attacked, and it is their fault.
As to your skewed and twisted interpretation of the history of Israel, it is unworthy of reply.
Peace was offered, and it was scorned. Arafat is the one having a troubled sleep in the bed he made for himself.

Starting a new round of slaughter will solve the conflict for neither side, yet the acts of Palestinian terrorists continue to perpetuate the tension, bloodshed and war.

[MOBIUS]

The parents of those children voted for Sharon - they choose to live in a country wrested by force from the people living there peacefully...

The Children are innocent - anyone of the age of majority can make an informed opinion as to whether they live in Israel or elsewhere.

As to your skewed and twisted interpretation of the history of Israel, it is unworthy of reply.

More like you are ill equipped to reply to it, so you clumsily attempt to discredit it instead...

A one sided peace was offered that was turned down - just because it was the best offer they had yet received doesn't mean that it was a fair offer!

Is it the acts of the Palestinian terrorists that perpetuate the tension, bloodshed and war - or is it the Israeli shoot to kill policy of quelling riots and 'pre emptive' (i.e. they strike first!) [b]assassinations of suspected and actual Palestinian leaders!!?

There have been several distinct lulls in the bloodshed that have been ended by an Israeli assassination and not a Palestinian terrorist act! Indeed, wasn't this very bout of carnage precipitated by an Israeli assassination the other day?

Personally, I wash my hands of it - while I am still sympathetic to the Palestinian plight, that is tempered by atrocious terrorist attacks on mainland Israeli civilian targets.

Why should I care when both sides seem to be macabrely intent on taking turns to visit death's embrace on each other?

No, these days I have more important things to think about - such as what I'm going to have for lunch...

[Simon Darkshade]

So then, the solution is for the Israelis to leave Israel because they have a choice to. Where do they go? Back to the former Soviet Union where many came from?

These people were attacked and killed indiscriminantly because they were Israelis, because they were Jews. To me, that does carry certain overtones

If you feel there are more important things, no one is forcing you to care, or to spout garbage. Just don't care or think about the issue.
I feel perfectly equipped to address your points, but somehow I feel they've been raised so many times before that to go over it again would be a tedious exercise in repetition. But, if you insist, I'll briefly give them the short shrift they deserve.

To generalize that every Israeli voted for Sharon, and should therefore bear the brunt of his actions, supposed or otherwise, is a quite disgusting one when that mean war, death and terror.
These are innocent civilians - REAL ****ING PEOPLE, not just some ephemeral concept. They were deep inside Israel itself, not in the West Bank; they were not in occupation of Palestinian territory, unless you take the view that Israel has no right to exist, which was one of your outrageous points.

It is a country recognized by the UN, and existant because of a resolution on the matter. Even at its creation, the surrounding Arab states and the Palestinians attempted to wipe it out in a war of destruction. It is a land earnt with the blood of those who have defended it, and by right. The reason for a Jewish homeland was to prevent another Holocaust; to give them the ability to defend themselves. Throughout its subsequent history, it has withstood the best efforts of its neighbours to finish the Hitlerite job.
These same neighbours pass the buck on the Palestinians, who were encouraged to leave and live in "temporary" camps by the neighbouring states, and then pushed about. They were not forced to leave Israel by the Israelis. Many remain.
Theirs is a tragic tale, but it does not excuse terrorism.

If 97% is not a fair offer, then your definition isn vastly different from that of most upright mammals. It was the best and fairest that they would ever get, and it was refused for craven political purposes.
Arafat sparked this intifada, which has grown out of his control, in order to keep his hold on power. His myriad deficiencies in leadership and other matters would have become inifinitely more apparent.
He still has the power to suppress the militant extremists, but chooses not to in order to preserve his own power base and position.


In terms of Israeli security policy, the targetting of known terrorists who are engaged in or planning terrorist activity is simple pre emptive self defence. Maybe they should be allowed to mount attacks and explode bombs in pizza shops before they are brought to justice.
As to troops shooting at rioters, the riots are used as cover for further activities and for sniping. Should the troops merely stand there politely and have rocks and worse thrown at them?
As for shooting to kill, it is a sensible policy. It is of a greater degree of difficulty to shoot to wound, and with modern assault rifle rounds, the damage is significant anyway. If they did shoot to wound or incapacitate, there would be an uproar about deliberate torture. The biggest target is the torso, and a shot there has a great likelihood of taking down your target.

On several different occasions, the attempts at ceasefires have been broken by Palestinian action; by actions ordered by those who have more to lose in peace than in continued war; the terrorist leaders who know nothing else, and whose power and privilege arises from their aptitude at murder.

As to the so called assassinations of terrorists, this is not the case.
Those deemed to be an imminent threat and danger are tried in absentsia, and only then are they pre emptively taken out. This is done in a way that puts the least risk to IDF personnel as possible; there is no fair play in it, just reality. Why use a squad on the ground when there are missiles.

You are correct to an extent by calling it "*** for tat", but to say that this was spawned by one event is not looking at it deep enough. Why was the terrorist leader killed? For terrorist actions which killed Israelis.
It is only being used as an excuse to stage further attacks by the brave martyrs who attack dangerous targets like a 13 year old girl's bat mitzvah party with M16s, grenades and explosives.
The terrorist leadership needs to be utterly taken out, regardless of the gasps of horror from those divorced from the immediate situation.
Peace takes two committed sides, and Arafat is not committed to controlling his people. He could, but does not.
This latest terrorist was an ex Palestinian Authority Policeman. He cannot even control his immediate people.

It is a perfectly human reaction to feel sickened by the cycle of continual violence, and if you don't want to have anything to do with it, that is your perogative, and all the best with it.
But, in doing so, condemning the very right of Israel to exist does go beyond the pale. To claim the "Zionists" "invaded" Palestine is to twist history, and to portray it incorrectly.
You said that both sides are at fault, and I would agree that neither is blameless, but Israel is reacting terrorist attacks on its very existence.
And as we well know from recent events, if you do not respond to these heinous acts in a strong manner, they will increase rather than desist.

I do not think so highly of myself as to presume that I have all the answers for this most troubled area, when they have eluded men and women for so many years, but I do know certain things.
I do know what is right, and what is wrong. And the existance of Israel is right, and trying to destroy it is wrong.

[Eli]

Simon, dont bother. It's like convincing Bin Laden.

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by MOBIUS
The parents of those children voted for Sharon - they choose to live in a country wrested by force from the people living there peacefully...

A) You have no knowledge of whether those parents actually voted Sharon
B) FYI Sharon is the first one, in 1974 to suggest publically to negociate with the PLO to achieve peace with the Palestinians.
C) According to your logic, it's alright to kill innocent palestinians because they are lead by terrorist Yassir Arafat.

The Children are innocent - anyone of the age of majority can make an informed opinion as to whether they live in Israel or elsewhere.

Your country still opresses the welsh, the scots and the irish.
Yet you live in England.

Does it mean it's alright to shoot you?

More like you are ill equipped to reply to it, so you clumsily attempt to discredit it instead...

You should know this method very well since you misquote and bolden stuff when you are ill equipped to make a point. I'm not sure you know what makes a valid point at all.

A one sided peace was offered that was turned down - just because it was the best offer they had yet received doesn't mean that it was a fair offer!

Yet the peace deal that was offered was quite fair.

Furthermore, even when the peace offer wasn't accepted:
Israel continued to persue negociations with the PLO under fire until January 2001.

Arafat however chose to start the intifada 2 in Sept. 2000 and used it as a tool to get a better deal from the Israelis where his political might didn't let him.

Is it the acts of the Palestinian terrorists that perpetuate the tension, bloodshed and war - or is it the Israeli shoot to kill policy of quelling riots and 'pre emptive' (i.e. they strike first!) [b]assassinations of suspected and actual Palestinian leaders!!?

It is very sad that terrorists are also Palestinian social leaders, but still while true it isn't the top of our agenda.

Each time Israel faces a conflict:

1. To kill a terrorist and therefore save dozens of lives in the mid-term and risk some in the short term
2. Not to kill a terrorist and therefore risk dozens of lives in both short and mid term.

I think the choise is easy.

Furthermore the Israeli active defense policies are in no way "pre=emptive". No terrorist was killed based on "speculations of thinking aobut something wrong". All those killed were terrorists who had a record of killing alot of Israeli civilians and were in the process of planning more Israeli civilians.

The Israeli shoot to kill policy is just since it's applied to terrorists. Not since around December is the war about "riots". And the riots to which you refer were all out violent outbrakes of hatred, dozens of times more violent than the anti-globalization riots, and even those riots cost some human lives when rioters began targeting civilians and policemen.

There have been several distinct lulls in the bloodshed that have been ended by an Israeli assassination and not a Palestinian terrorist act!

It might come as a surprise but the Israeli govt. doesn't infact intend to wait for terracts to happen. It prefers to prevent them and it does so by either arresting or eliminating those who plan terracts.

It is sad that arrests aren't publicized on CNN and BBC, but Israel has arrested most of the terrorists, even though it is dozens of times more difficult, especially with Arafat's forces not cooperating but rather protecting terrorists.

Indeed, wasn't this very bout of carnage precipitated by an Israeli assassination the other day?

A suspected assassination.

The men killed is directly responsible for the killing of 10 Israelis in the past several months, and was planning to kill more.

Personally, I wash my hands of it - while I am still sympathetic to the Palestinian plight, that is tempered by atrocious terrorist attacks on mainland Israeli civilian targets.

I'm very sympathetic to the Palestinian plight of getting their own land and state. I'm all for it.

However, for as long as they use terror as part of the "negociations" with Israel, I refuse to negociate with them and support preventive actions against further terracts.

It is only when terror will end that I would be more than happy to return to the negociations table.

However the problem runs deeper. While in the years since the Oslo process started, Israeli schools preached about palestinian rights, the benefits of peace and the need for freedom for the palestinian people.

Palestinian schools however, just like their TV stations and mosques and even universities, preach hatred. School books that would make a Nazi blush are used. Jews as a nation and religion are presented as the sons of devil and as plain evil. Not as human beeings in conflict, not even as evil conquerors, but as the children of devil uncapable of doing good.

Therefore there should be no surprise that the peace process is hard to implement.

Why should I care when both sides seem to be macabrely intent on taking turns to visit death's embrace on each other?

There's a difference between both sides.

The Israelis target terrorists. They might hit innocent people on mistake, though and it happens in such small and crowded territories. However each such event is seen as a very sad one and is mourned by people and government alike, though the acts to defend ourselves won't stop. We just try to aim better.

Palestinians however target innocent people. Usually defenceless people as well. When Israelis die in bomb terracts, or when thousands of Americans die on 9/11, they go celebrating, because they are taught in school and in mosque that Jews and Christians are the source of all evil.

Choose who is more rightous, and choose wisely. Not according to misconceptions and objectivism, but according to objectivity.

No, these days I have more important things to think about - such as what I'm going to have for lunch...

Then why are you still here talking nonsense about things you know **** about?