The Best And The Worst Of Your Countries History.

[DinoDoc]

Minor quibles

Originally posted by Chris 62
James Monroe tells old world to stay out of American politics, or it's war! (Monroe Doctrone)

It's easy to be that brave when you have a world wide naval power enforcing your doctrine for you.

US forces tip balence of power in WWI, allowing allied victory.

Was this really such a good thing? What really would have changed from a US perspective had the US stayed out of what was until then largely a European conflict?

[Tingkai]

Re: Minor quibles

Originally posted by DinoDoc


Was this really such a good thing [US involvement in WWI]? What really would have changed from a US perspective had the US stayed out of what was until then largely a European conflict?

Same goes for Canada's involvement. Thousands of Canadians died for nothing.

And I would change my previous statement about the worst of Canada's history. A close tie for the worst thing was the thousands of men killed in Boer War and WWI. These were wars that we had no reason to be involved in.

[Ramo]

Interesting quote, Ramo, considering it was made BEFORE they even came up with the plan, so as to make it irrelivent.

Would you care to explain why?

What about something straight from the horse's mouth?
In 1948, a quote from Marshall: "It is idle to think that a Europe left to its own efforts [...] would remain open to American business in the same way that we have known it in the past."

Nice try at taking a quote out of context to attack a postion, BTW, but no dice.

Is there some other less cynical context that that quote would work under?

Acheson, when the Plan was beginning, said, "These measures of relief and reconstruction have been only in part suggested by humanitarianism. Your Congress has authorized and your Government is carrying out, a policy of relief and reconstruction today chiefly as a matter of national self-interest."

Is that "out of context" too?

[Sikander]

Chris,

"USA enables allies to again win, this time WWII, without US help Soviets would have collasped (before anyone shoots their mouth off, USA was providing 70% of all foodstuffs, 80% of all uniforms, 95% of motor transport, 30% of all armor, 40% of al aircraft, amonug other things to Soviets, and similar numbers to Britain)"

Do you have a source for this? I find it hard to believe these figures for the USSR for the war (perhaps for part of 1942?) as a whole, considering the fact that so few (crappy) allied tanks and planes show up in Russian TO & E s during WWII. Also consider that goods shipped to the USSR were limited to one decent port, and were forced to use a tiny rail spur to Archangel. This doesn't pass the smell test.

In Britain there were many available ports, and the rail traffic was dispersed, making the figures above more believable. Your statement about the possibility of Soviet collapse is impossible to prove either way (they did go on the offensive in 1942), but I certainly believe that the Soviets were heartened by U.S. entry into the war, especially as the timely Japanese attack freed them from worries in Siberia of Japanese attack.

I also think you underestimate Soviet military capabilities in 1945. While they were certainly war weary, they were also very experienced, and much of there equipment was as good as or better than anglo-allied stuff. They were also numerous, and still quite capable on the defensive. Dictating to them would not have been as easy as you make it out to be. Though I am no huge fan of Truman, he doesn't deserve the blame for upholding the agreements made by his predecessor, nor for not wielding power which it is doubtful he really had.

He does deserve plenty of blame for Korea though, for lazy intelligence and sloppy diplomacy before the conflict broke out, and for letting the military fall so low after the war ended, and allowing it to stay there right up til the invasion of South Korea. His defiance after the fact needn't have been such a 'profile in courage' if he had been better prepared in the first place. A lot of Americans died because of that, and a lot more Koreans died than Americans.

In another nit pick, while you may be no fan of Andrew Johnston personally, I can't agree with your analysis of this period of American History being a low for the same reasons that you do. For one thing, Congress undid a lot of the damage he did by passing both civil rights legislation and the 14th amendment. The real Jim Crow damage was done after the (second) withdrawl of U.S. troops by (Harrison?) a decade later.

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by ravagon

btw Horsie that wasn't you sneaking down to Southern NSW for a quick smoke away from Mrs Horse by any chance?
Gotta be more careful with those matches.

Tell me about it.

As a matter of fact I was one of a group of teenagers who started a small bushfire in my youth. We were standing above a railway cutting trying to make a molotov cocktail to throw, if my memory serves me correctly, at a passing passenger train but we used petrol so of course when someone tried to light the wick our hands caught fire and we dropped it in the bush.....................run away, run away

Better stop there

So you see, it was only an accident

God teenagers are stupid, especially 13 or 14 year old boys.

[Roland]

About Wilson:

"Showing some backbone would have been nice, and considering how much Britain and France owed the USA in war debts, in real politik, Wilson had tremendous leverage, but was far to timid and a dreamer to use it."

Britain's LLoyd George was best at representing Germany's interests among the big 4, simply as part of a continental balance, and considering the contrast between the Vienna Peace of 1815 (not much revenge against France there, for those who like to think of all history as bloodthirsty and revenge-driven) vs the 1871 Frankfurt treaty. Wilson was either clueless or suffering from some religion-infested punishment fantasies, or both.

About ERP:

Why is it so difficult to see this coming from several motivations, economic self interest, containment of communism and humanitarian ideals ?

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

There's been a distinct lack of British contributions. I'll redress the balance.

Best-

The Battle of Brunnanburh/The reign of Athelstan- Athelstan's Wessex and Mercian army takes on the invading forces of Constantine's Scots, Olaf Gothfrithson's Irish Danes, the Northumbrian Danes and a motley bunch of Icelanders and Norwegians. He utterly kicks the crap out of them. England would not exist without this- we'd be subjects of Scotland, Ireland or Denmark. It also helps that Athelstan was a remarkably enlightened man as kings go, and that his Anglo-Saxon England was amazingly democratic and humane considering it was the Dark Ages.

The defeat of the Spanish Armada- Chosen because it was such a typically English victory. The English Admirals weren't heroes- they were pirates (Drake actually broke off the pursuit at a crucial moment so that he could nip off and raid the Spanish payship) and the defeat owes more to good luck and the notoriously evil British weather than any degree of military brilliance. I like battles like that- they reaffirm my belief in human nature.

The abolition of slavery- William Wilberforce was a great man. What's more, the presence of the powerful and highly belligerant British Navy harassing slaveships didn't do the slave trade in other nations much good either.

Rourke's Drift- How couldn't this go on? The Zulu wars were evil acts of colonial aggression, but the legacy of a bunch of Welsh troopers standing up to odds exceeding 50 to 1 and surviving is nothing short of incredible.

The Battle of Cable Street- Moseley's British Union of Fascists was ominously gaining strength in the 1930's, but when they tried to march through the Jewish streets, the locals took sides with the socialists, the Trades Unionists and just about everyone else who disliked the goose-stepping clowns and kicked them clear out of London. Chaos theory dictates that small events are the determining factors in global events, and this one was a significant factor in the final outcome of WW2.+

The Battle of Britain- Too obvious, but it had Spitfires in it. Spitfires kick arse. It had Hurricanes too, but they're a bit dumpy and ugly.



Worst-

The Battle of Hastings- William The Bastard (unsurprisngly renamed by his historians as William "the Conqueror") took a motley rabble of disinherited bastards (note how many of his Earls had surnames starting with "Fitz.."), psychopaths, murderers and rapists to England. Only the truly desperate or insane would have followed him- he was attempting to invade arguably the most powerful state in Western Europe with prcatically no local support). Through a series of flukes, bad timing and plain bad luck (such as a simultaneous invasion by Harold Hardrade) Harold II (a promising king) was defeated and the Anglo-Saxon state abolished. Instead we were left with a murderous tyranny that set our culture back by centuries. Every monarch England has had since 1066 has been crap. I have proof.

Repression of the Scots and Irish from 1600 to very recently- You name it, we did it. Particular lowpoints include the Glencoe massacre, Cumberland's atrocities following Cullodden and Irish internment in the 1970's.

Random and widespread colonial brutality in the Americas, Africa, Middle East, India and South East Asia 1600 to about 1966- Do you see a trend emerging? Most world leaders throughout history have been absolute scum, but I can't think of any other nation that glories in such a legacy of wholescale theft. Can you?
Actually the warning signs were first shown in 939 AD when Athelstan sent an army to assist Louis IV d'Outremer against Otto of the Germans (the first example of English involvement in overseas wars). Rather than join the battle, his forces just sailed up and down the English channel raiding the neutral and allied cities they found before sauntering back with ships full of loot. It's where those English football fans take their legacy from.

Having a tradition of holding out against overwhelming odds but getting embarrassingly defeated by relatively puny states, like the fledgeling USA.- Yes, that's quite poor.

The Opium Wars- Mmmmm..... I'm trying to think how these might have any justification at all. Nope, I'm beaten.

Introducing commercial slavery on a scale unmatched by just about anyone else- Oh dear.... Bristol and Liverpool were founded on slavery.

Following up the slavery by switching to alcohol and tobacco, probably leading to the premature deaths of countless millions in the process- Oh dearie me....

Spreading numerous diseases by our rampaging hordes of pirates, slavers and random thieving gits- Look, we're sorry. OK?

Maintaining a pious and scolding manner to murderous and repressive 3rd world regimnes whilst simultaneously supplying them with the weapons to carry out their muders and repressions- Yes, we're shooting ourselves in the foot there, aren't we?

This is England. If you want to know about the bad stuff, the challenge is knowing where to stop.

[Libertarian]

Just curious. Is there anyone in Europe who still appreciates Operation Overlord?

[Ecthy]

Originally posted by Transcend
That's right. Firebombing Dresden should be another proud moment of our history.

I wish you were just a troll, but I know you're low enough to actually believe what you say

[Drekkus]

Originally posted by Libertarian
Just curious. Is there anyone in Europe who still appreciates Operation Overlord?

Did anyone say he didn't? Must have missed it. A really great episode in world history. Have you ever been to Normandy? Really awesome. Just remember that the British and Canadians had just as much a part of Overlord as the Americans.

Why do you ask?

[Ecthy]

Originally posted by Libertarian
Just curious. Is there anyone in Europe who still appreciates Operation Overlord?

Yeah, cool, we fucked your guys into pieces when they arrived from their nice swimming trip

[MikeH]

Laz: All your good historical things are about battles aside from the slavery thing.

I'd put in stuff like introduction of the welfare state, about a billion inventions, including stuff like most major international team sports. Science, probably the best of which is Newton revolutionising physics and inventing calculus along the way to help him out.

You are right about the worst of British history though, it's a long and shameful past unfortunately.

[MrWhereItsAt]

New Zealand:

Best:
A few: Treaty of Waitangi - despite its flaws, I believe it has actually enabled the Maori to achieve a higher status in NZ than most other indigenous peoples in former colonies. (Of course as a Pakeha, er, White male, I could just have the establishment pulling authentic NZ wool over my eyes) More recently the 1981 South Africa rugby tour - when the rest of the world was condmning SA for Apartheid, controversially the Govt at least gave them a chance; and the prominent role in the East Timor peace process.

Worst: By us - The Maori Land Wars (don't know much about them, but they're not all that bad compared with other land wars).

Against us - Gallipoli, or maybe the French secret agent bombing of the Greenpeace ship Rainbow Warrior in harbour in Auckland. Sounds minor but still rises blood pressure here.

We're not that interesting, are we? But I bet you all learned something, eh?

Oh, I left out Tiger Woods and Anna Kournikova playing major sports events in li'l ole Aotearoa within a few weeks of the start of '02 (well NZ Open hasn't started yet, but it will!). I am serious, sports are big here. Imagine the first 12 mins of the nightly news devoted to Tiger!

And ravagon, was that incident the underarm bowling one? I don't know cricketers from before my time.

[MrWhereItsAt]

As for Britain, what about British civilization and its influence? It may not be The world power anymore (well, some think so), but English civilization has given rise to most of what we in Western countries enjoy. What would the world be without the US, and what would the US be without England?

[MikeH]

Originally posted by Libertarian
Just curious. Is there anyone in Europe who still appreciates Operation Overlord?

Aber naturlich, ohne amerikanische Hilfe würden wir alle Deutsch sprechen.