What!! Guy goes on a rampage with a gun and no gun control thread yet?

[David Floyd]

techno, that's funny as HELL! I know...maybe everyone should strap themselves with dynamite or C4 or some ****, and carry around a dead man's trigger. Let's see who gets ****ed with then

[drake]

david, do you pull this crap in real life too?

Deaths don't matter as long as your rights to bear arms are protected by the constitution?

"People dying because of it don't matter much to me, because my Constitutional rights outweigh any other bull**** argument you can make. "

Your attitude is quite pathetic
You have no empathy whatsoever.

People are more important than your rights david. Sorry if that hurts your feelings.

Why don't you just go right ahead and say "I don't care about anything but me." ME ME ME. Selfish *****.

Just another rebel without a clue.

[David Floyd]

Actually I would say that the guarantee and protection of individual rights are more important than some people dying. Eventually, we'll lose our last rights if you go down that road - and while things may or may not be safer, we won't have any freedom.

But the point is, a gun ban could NEVER happen in the US, there would have to be massive bipartisan support to pass a Constitutional amendment, and even if that amendment got passed there is NO way 3/4s of the states would ratify it.

OTOH, Arizona already has a law sitting on the books saying that if the feds try to ban guns, Arizona, in conjunction with other states will secede.

[Scipio Centaurus]

It must, of course, be legal to carry firearms [haven't given it much thought, but carry of explosive ordnance may be OK too].

This law should be global. Any country not complying should be deemed a terrorist state by the US government and added to the list for eventual replacement of its government with a government more pliable to US demands.

Every individual on the planet over the age of 18 [hereafter refered to as global citizens] should be required to carry one longarm and one concealed smallarm when leaving their place of residence.

All global citizens should be required to take periodic mandatory precision markmanship training and livefire combat firarm training.

All global citizens should be 'deputized' by their local law enforcement agencies and given the power of arrest.

Bounties on common law fugitives should be issued and payable to any law enforcement agent.

Persons advocating gun control should be charged and tried for commission of a misdemeanor and once declared guilty, an aprropriate bounty established.

[drake]

What good are individual rights to the people who get killed???Hmm? What good are rights if your brains are blown across the pavement??

I never said guns should be banned myself. Just harder to get a hold of. Not being so glamourized and appealing to kids who think "guns are cool" . Having to license them on a regular basis might be helpful.

And what do you mean by "some" david? How many people dead are enough for you to change your mind? 10? 100? 1000? 1000000? How many are enough for you to actually think about something rather than just contiuing to throw out your "i have rights" line?

People are brainwashed into thinking they need a gun to feel safe. And in some extreme cases, this may be so, but not for the rest of the population. Not IMO. They just aren't necessary.

Don't get me wrong, the actual guns themselves arent the problem. Its this aggressive society. The society is ripe for violence. The abundance of guns just makes it too easy for anyone with the right mind, to become a very real danger to society.

Less guns = better for societies health
More guns = better for increasing murder and keeping the gun manufacturers rich (and of course protecting davids rights !)

You talk of the right to bear arms like it is a real priviledge. I can own a gun. Whoopty freekin do.

[orange]

I must congratulate you David, you define "redneck"

Originally posted by David Floyd
You know, I frankly don't give a **** if too many guns cause lots of death. That's ****ing irrelevant. Only thing that matters is that I have both the right to bear arms, and the right to private property which includes guns, guaranteed by the US Constitution. People dying because of it don't matter much to me, because my Constitutional rights outweigh any other bull**** argument you can make.

We let 5,000 people a year die so you can sit around pondering the idea that you're allowed to have a gun. I love your logic

Euros and liberals don't like it? Tough ****. Don't buy a gun, or don't move to America. Just because Rosie ****ing O'Donnell thinks guns should be banned (of course, her own bodyguard carries a gun ) doesn't mean they should be.

Personally I hate Rosie O'Donnell, so I don't see why you're bringing her into this.

I will say, though, that if the feds try to ban guns, that'll just make crime go up - lots and lots of dead cops and hopefully politicians too. Oh, wait, I forgot, that wouldn't be a crime, that'd simply be defending your rights.

God, I wish Texas would secede, I really do.

[loinburger]

Drake:
What good are individual rights to the people who get killed???

What good is being alive if we have no individual rights? How many rights are you willing to take away for the sake of keeping people alive?

[orange]

Originally posted by technophile
Drake:
What good are individual rights to the people who get killed???

What good is being alive if we have no individual rights? How many rights are you willing to take away for the sake of keeping people alive?

I don't see the Euros complaining about not having guns, do you?

[Saint Marcus]

guaranteed by the US Constitution

The US Constitution has been changed quite often in the past. Why not change it again? Especcially since it causes so many deaths.

And a homicide rate 7 times higher than in Europe is rather appaling for a western nation.

[Gibsie]

DinoDoc deserves credit for not pigeon-holing himself here. He neither says he wants guns banned/ more control as the more liberal do, nor does he push for greater enforcement of current laws (saying through sarcasm that the guy in his example ahould not be prosecyted for breaking a pretty useful gun law on the books), the favoured position of the NRA. Can we have a concrete viewpoint for once please?

[loinburger]

Originally posted by orange
I don't see the Euros complaining about not having guns, do you?

I'd imagine that there are quite a few Eastern Europeans who wish that they'd had more guns when the Soviets more or less annexed them.

Just because a society is currently stable is no assurance that it will remain so indefinitely; the second amendment is there so that US citizens can defend themselves in times of instability, like in Berserker's example of the LA riots.

[Scipio Centaurus]

Originally posted by Mark L
The US Constitution has been changed quite often in the past. Why not change it again? Especcially since it causes so many deaths.

Constitutions don't kill people... People kill people.

And a homicide rate 7 times higher than in Europe is rather appaling for a western nation.

Could stand to be a bit higher...

[drake]

What good is being alive if we have no individual rights? How many rights are you willing to take away for the sake of keeping people alive?

Oh jesus christ, here we go again. I talk about common sense and people jump on the "i have rights" wagon.

We're talking about the right to own a friggin gun, gimme a break. It's not lowering anybodys quality of life. It's not hurting people. It would save lives (without a doubt, try arguing it!). Because one has the right to buy a gun doesnt mean they should or should be encouraged to. It's not necessary and it does more harm to society than help.

Ok, someone please help me out here. WIthout playing the constitution card, someone please give me 10 good reasons what benefit guns bring to society. Real legitimate reasons, not "because they're cool" david.

Anyone on the pro-gun side up for it? I sure can give you 10 con reasons why guns should be regulated better.

[Wraith]

Damn, I am so not in the mood for one of these threads right now, but the baka brigade is out in force.

--"I don't think I can recall a single story in which the use of a gun helped matters. Can you?"

I can think of a number, actually, but only because I watch some non-mainstream news sources and get some back-channel news from my father (the cop).

See, the thing is, defensive gun usages are rarely ratings-worthy. They're ususally not really flashy, since most of the time all you have to do is show the gun to get left alone. This means they're usually not even reported to the police. When they are flashy (like the clerk who killed a guy trying to take several customers hostage at gunpoint) they never seem to make the national media for some reason. Go figure.

Anyway, several studies have been done on this. The numbers range from 800,000 to 2.5 million defensive gun usages in the US every year.

--"In other words, in European nations where guns are outlawed the homicide rate is 7 times lower than in the USA."

And in Japan the suicide rate is several times what it is in the US, but they have far fewer guns. By your logic, lack of guns causes suicide.

Sorry, but two samples and your belief does not a causation make. You haven't even shown a correlation yet. If you don't like guns, fine, say so, but please make actual arguments.

--"they obviously are not laws that are doing anything meaningful or drastic when it comes to gun control."

Yeah, our law enforcement officials are too busy pushing officers to arrest marijuana smokers to bother with gun dealers and convicted criminals attempting to buy weapons.

--"Explain to me then why the statistics that MarkL gave exist"

There are a large number of reasons for it. The US and the EU have quite dis-similar societies, so any direct comparison of the sort you guys want is difficult.

--"If there had been stricter gun control in place, the guy who shot the two students wouldn't have had the gun in the first place!"

Oh bull****. Surveys conducted with inmates at state and federal prisons shows that over 80% say they can get a gun within a week of getting out of jail. Note, these are convicted criminals, and it's already illegal for them to buy guns. You think criminals are going to obey the laws in regards to buying guns?

Look, drugs are shipped into this country in ton lots. Guns are not going away, no matter how many laws you pass, which means you can only disarm the law-abiding citizens.

--"Guns makes killing too easy."

Cars make them easy too. Right before one of the big media frenzies over a school shooting, one guy ran his car into a group of students in front of a school. He did admit to doing it on purpose, trying to kill people, but for some reason this story didn't really hit the national scene.

--"Many parents in a pathetic attempt to "protect" their kids, have killed their kids by leaving weapons accessable to them."

Which is a comment about stupid parents, not how evil guns are.

--"The police need to enforce those laws..."

Nope. Supreme Court rulings say they only have to try to figure out who did them. They don't have any duty to try to stop them from happening.

--"People are more important than your rights david. Sorry if that hurts your feelings."

Individual rights are more important than anything. If you start allowing exceptions to individual rights you aren't going to have the most fundamental one, the right to life, much longer either.

Wraith
"Stupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education, or by legislation. Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't help being stupid. But stupidity is the only universal capital crime; the sentence is death, there is no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically and without pity."
-- Robert A. Heinlein

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Gibsie
(saying through sarcasm that the guy in his example ahould not be prosecyted for breaking a pretty useful gun law on the books),

a) I think that you assume to much here. I'm actually not sure what the vice principal did is a crime under the MS criminal code. In fact, one of my professors actually admits to carrying a concealed weapon on his person at all times.

b) Do you really think that you'd find a jury to convict the man of anything in the entire state of MS? I don't.

Can we have a concrete viewpoint for once please?

I actually think that greater enforcement of the approx. 20k gun laws the US has on the books would be a good place to start before we start enacting new gun laws/bans. Is that clear enough?