The Israeli Retaliation Begins

[Imran Siddiqui]

Spray, I guarentee you that once Arafat is gone, the bombings will increase in number. If Arafat is gone, a power vaccuum develops and in steps Hamas and Islamic Jihad. You want them to be the leaders of the Palestinian movement? Even if Israel takes Palestine over, the seeds of radicalism will continue.

Hell, Begin turned from terrorist to leader... why can't Arafat be given the chance?

Funny how Israel was started by terrorism, yet when the tables are turned it is totally wrong.

[Monoriu]

I have heard of a solution to all this: Isreal unilaterally withdraw from West Bank and Gaza, build a solid, continuous wall along the border, and permanently seal it so that no Palestinian can get through.

Now, why isn't this feasible? I am interested to know.

[Natan]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Spray, I guarentee you that once Arafat is gone, the bombings will increase in number. If Arafat is gone, a power vaccuum develops and in steps Hamas and Islamic Jihad. You want them to be the leaders of the Palestinian movement? Even if Israel takes Palestine over, the seeds of radicalism will continue.

Yes, this is what a war on terrorism means, the use of military means to deter and end terrorism.

Hell, Begin turned from terrorist to leader... why can't Arafat be given the chance?

1) Begin wasn't a terrorist, as discussed above.
2) Arafat did have his chance, and he blew it again and again. The entire 8 years of Oslo were his chance, and he failed.

Funny how Israel was started by terrorism, yet when the tables are turned it is totally wrong.

1) How was Israel "started by terrorism?"
2) The US was founded on terrorism plus genocide and slave-holding, yet when the tables are turned, it's totally wrong.

Zylka: Just because you give a slur a different meaning doesn't make it less offensive. For example, there are people who use the word n***** to mean just a person of poor character, and apply it to blacks and whites alike, but it's still quite offensive and should be avoided.

Monoriu: The problem is that it's very hard to build an effective wall over such a large area. There's a fence in Gaza, which has a much shorter border with Israel, but it would just be too hard to build such a fence in the west bank. Also, mortar and rocket attacks could continue and could reach much further into Israel.

[Richard Bruns]

Originally posted by Oldenbarnevelt
So I take it you think the US should not have gone after al-Qaeda?

If going after Al-Queda meant that a whole new generation of terrorists would be spawned, then yes. If the danger of an intact Al-Queda was judged to be less than the danger of making them martyrs, they should have been left alone. Fortunately it seems at this point that our government has managed to conduct the operation without turning the Muslem world against us.

Utilitarian calculations and not emotional reactions should dominate policy. Retaliation for the sake of retaliation is pointless. The main focus of any operation should be prevention. If swift retaliatory action prevents future tragedy, then it is warranted. But if retaliation breeds hatred and instability that will lead to more future terrorism, it is foolish.

[Goingonit]

About going after Arafat and not Hamas, hey're one and the same.

I have heard that Israel has bombed the shared offices of the PA and Hamas. This means a) they're going after Hamas, and b), the PA and Hamas share office space! If the PA is in active cooperation with them, they are as responsibel as Hamas.

As to taking out Arafat, you could either get someone more moderate or someone more extreme. Both are good for Israel. Why? Moderate is more moderate, this is obviously good. If you get someone more extreme, they are obviously terrorists, where as Arafat is a "terrorist in a diplomat's suit". You can afford to be rough when Hamas actively represents the Palestinian Authority.

On a side note, Ha'aretz, an Israeli newspaper, reports on their website that the Palestinian Authority Police have stolen cars in their police stations for use, apparently, by the police chiefs.

[faded glory]

Originally posted by Eli
More empty structures are being bombed now...

Arg you freakin amatuers .....you should be razing villages to the ground and strafing PA police vehicles like we are in Afghanishtan.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Begin WAS a terrorist and the reason the Brits got out is because of terrorism. That is the main reason that they left so quickly. They didn't wish to deal with the terror that the Jews were imposing. The Jews called them Freedom Fighters. Same thing that people call Hamas. And hell, it worked for Hamas in Lebanon.

And yes, the US shouldn't go in just for genocide or eradicating slavery. Only when we are asked by the population and we think that they are a good ally.

[Natan]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Begin WAS a terrorist

AFAIK, he never ordered or carried out the murder of innocent people.

And hell, it worked for Hamas in Lebanon.

Unlikely, since Hamas doesn't operate in Lebanon, never has, and almost certainly never will. Maybe you're thinking of Hezbollah?

And yes, the US shouldn't go in just for genocide or eradicating slavery. Only when we are asked by the population and we think that they are a good ally.

But if we do, I think it would be rather asinine to say that America is founded on genocide and slavery. Furthermore, the analogy doesn't hold, it's not as if Israel is going after terrorists who attack other countries, it's acting in self defense - surely you agree that the US should defend its own people against genocide and enslavement?

[Zylka]

Monoriu, the problem is that psychopath [sic]muslims[/sic] will never recognize the Israeli state, and will always do their best to suicide bomb it, etc.

It's a case of a few as*holes ruining it for all Palestinians, so we must eradicate the as*holes. The question remains, how many of them are there, and how many future zealot monkeys are waiting to be born? Perhaps it's something we just have to live with, perhaps the Israeli state should turn the other cheek. Whatever.

Hey - the monkey comment is not even close to calling one a n*gger... I call people monkeys when they act like primitive murderers, regardless of race. The latter insult, is rooted as a racist term and not subject to personal interpretation.

[Natan]

Originally posted by Zylka
Monoriu, the problem is that psychopath [sic]muslims [/sic] will never recognize the Israeli state, and will always do their best to suicide bomb it, etc.

Okay, that is really indisputably racist. And also, it does nothing to really answer his question.

It's a case of a few as*holes ruining it for all Palestinians, so we must eradicate the as*holes. The question remains, how many of them are there, and how many future zealot monkeys are waiting to be born?

If you're not a racist, why do you speak of people being born as "zealot monkeys?"

[Zylka]

Originally posted by Natan

Okay, that is really indisputably racist. And also, it does nothing to really answer his question.

If you're not a racist, why do you speak of people being born as "zealot monkeys?"

PLEASE NOTICE THE [SIC] DENOTATIONS I ADDED - A SUGGESTION THAT I DO NOT BELIEVE ONE WHO KILLS (ie. suicide bombs) IS A TRUE MUSLIM. ISLAM IS A BEAUTIFUL RELIGION WHEN NOT INTERPRETED IN THE NAME OF MURDER, THAT IS MY POINT.

Also, calling one a zealot monkey to be born is in a vain of fate, it is symbolic and has nothing to do with what you are born into (ie. religion), rather what "fate" has in store. It is only symbolic of reading history in terms of fate (ie. the psychopath monkey Hitler was born in the Austrian blabla). Re-read carefully!

[Natan]

Originally posted by Zylka


PLEASE NOTICE THE [SIC] DENOTATIONS I ADDED - A SUGGESTION THAT I DO NOT BELIEVE ONE WHO KILLS (ie. suicide bombs) IS A TRUE MUSLIM. ISLAM IS A BEAUTIFUL RELIGION WHEN NOT INTERPRETED IN THE NAME OF MURDER, THAT IS MY POINT.

My apologies.

Also, calling one a zealot monkey to be born is in a vain of fate, it is symbolic and has nothing to do with what you are born into (ie. religion), rather what "fate" has in store. Re-read carefully!

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

[Zylka]

It's confusing, and in my introverted style of thought, therefore difficult to explain. Apologies.

[Sprayber]

Originally posted by Dissident
peace will never exist. I always figured this, but is now more apparant.

This is perhaps the only sane, unbiased, and true statement in this whole thread. And it was done by Dissident.


I came back and read this thread again and I really can't find many more unbiased posts. Either it is all the fault of the Pal, or all the fault of the Israelies. Everyone has pretty much chosen sides and won't budge. Before I get rocks thrown from both sides of the fense, I would like to say that my earlier feelings towards Arafat are no worse than what I think about Sharon. Somehow, I get the feeling that he is more comfortable bombing than he is talking. I can't back it up with a link (sorry), but it's just a feeling I get.

[Richard Bruns]

Originally posted by Sprayber
This is perhaps the only sane, unbiased, and true statement in this whole thread. ....
I came back and read this thread again and I really can't find many more unbiased posts. Either it is all the fault of the Pal, or all the fault of the Israelies. Everyone has pretty much chosen sides and won't budge.

Ok, I must be a really bad communicator if I came across as biased. I too think both sides are equal. Terror, blind retaliation, they both reinforce each other to get nowhere. I fully agree with you and Dissident.