The Israeli Retaliation Begins

[CapTVK]

"Neca eos omnes. Deus suos agnoset"


If you're a christian you'll have a good idea what this quote means.

[Goingonit]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


They were at the peace table, and they can return if the violence stops. And Arafat must stop it. And it is not for you to be disconted with israel or the PA. It is for you to tell YOUR govt to put pressure on Arafat to crack down on terror now, so that peace negotians may proceed.

LOTM

These so-called "peace negotiations" were a farce, although many were wilfully blind to this fact. the Palestinians never fulfill any of the things they agree to, including the recognition of Israel's right to exist.

As to the "Israel was founded on terrorism" bit, Israel can proudly claim to be a state founded by the UN. It wasn't a question of, "you give us our country, or the King gets it!"

There are some shameful incidents in Israel's past, but we shouldn't forget that there are some shameful incidents in the pasts of certain other countries in the region.

[chequita guevara]

The thing is, Natan, Israel doesn't seem to be targetting Hamas and Islamic Jihad, but rather the PA. Even if the PA is sitting on its ass doing nothing, that seems counter-productive to me. Israel has proved time and again it has no respect for Palestinian authority, so why not just go in and get Hamas themselves, if they know who the terrorists are, instead of bombing the PA. When they invade the West Bank and Gaza strip, it just seems like they're shooting anything that moves and shutting things down, not going on policing operations.

Of course, it could be deliberate policy of Israel to weaken the "moderating" influence of Arafat while ignoring Hamas. This objectively strengthens Hamas, resulting in a permanent reason for Israeli occupation. It only costs Israel a few citizens, in return they get continued water access and settlements, as well as not having those wedges into their heartland.

I am cynical enough to believe that the Israeli government would do that. Because they are every bit as mean, nasty, evil, and vicious as our own.

[chequita guevara]

*points at Goingonit*

Hey look, a new player on the ME merry-go-round.

[Natan]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
The thing is, Natan, Israel doesn't seem to be targetting Hamas and Islamic Jihad, but rather the PA. Even if the PA is sitting on its ass doing nothing, that seems counter-productive to me.

Well my personal preference would be to just go after Hamas and Islamic Jihad directly and ignore the PA, but since the "international community" seems to demand that Israel work with the PA, Israel has taken to attacking some smybols of PA power as an inducement to further cooperation. Also, the PA is often involved in terrorism, either by way of members of its police force who moonlight for Hamas or by placing Hamas members in protective custody.

Israel has proved time and again it has no respect for Palestinian authority, so why not just go in and get Hamas themselves, if they know who the terrorists are, instead of bombing the PA. When they invade the West Bank and Gaza strip, it just seems like they're shooting anything that moves and shutting things down, not going on policing operations.

Well firstly, what gets reported in the news is when Israel accidentally shoots a civillian, or that normal life (utilities, schools ,etc.) get shut down during raids, and perhaps that makes sense, but in fact, dozens of people get arrested, and the raids do seem to encourage PA compliance - Israel drove tanks all the way through Beit Jala a few monthes ago, and since then, the PA discovered that it did have the ability to stop the shooting attacks on the neighborhood of Gilo, and it has used this ability ever since - the shooting on Gilo stopped.

Of course, it could be deliberate policy of Israel to weaken the "moderating" influence of Arafat while ignoring Hamas. This objectively strengthens Hamas, resulting in a permanent reason for Israeli occupation. It only costs Israel a few citizens, in return they get continued water access and settlements, as well as not having those wedges into their heartland.

I seriously doubt this, based on what I know about the polticians in Israel's cabinet.

I am cynical enough to believe that the Israeli government would do that. Because they are every bit as mean, nasty, evil, and vicious as our own.

3/4 of Israeli politicians are in it for the money, it's true. But it increasingly seems that even the ones which aren't are anti-Arafat. Of course, this could just be the general pattern of the only ME politicians who aren't jerks being tough guys.

[Goingonit]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
*points at Goingonit*

Hey look, a new player on the ME merry-go-round.

That's me.

Surprisingly, I find people here share my beliefs more than people at my school . I've argued some ppl down to the basic question of "is there Palestinian terrorism?"

[Monoriu]

I fully support the victims of terrorism strike back at the terrorists or those who harbour the terrorists.

[Adam Smith]

A couple points I missed in prevoius discussions:

1. Somebody once said that the population of Israel was 60 percent Jewish, 40 percent Palestinian. Were those figures for Israel + Jerusalem + West Bank + Gaza, or for Israel within pre 1967 borders?

2. What is the Israeli government's intention for the ultimate dispositon of settlements in the occupied territories? My understanding (assumption??) has been that these settlements would be abandoned / demolished / turned over / whatever in return for a lasting and enforceable peace agreement. True? False? Answer depends on who is in government? Nobody knows?

Thanks.

[orange]

The key here is government sponsoring. If Israelis neighbors support the groups that are supporting terrorism, they should be stopped. However, the Israeli government is the one returning fire...that's obvious. They are at completely at fault until it is proven that the governments of the surrounding nations are supporting the terrorism. Until then, it's just mass murder and has no affiliation to groups of people or nations.

[Imran Siddiqui]

If Arafat has genuinely turned from terrorism and wants peace he can prove it TODAY. Let him arrest all the Hamas leaders, and extradite them to Israel immediately.

Um... I think Arafat would rather live for more than a week. If he starts cracking down on Hamas NOW, he's dead. Simple as that.

And yes, this is counter-productive. If anything, this will increase attacks, and make things worse. More death and destruction are in the works. For some, like Eli, this is something to be lauded.

[Eli]

Originally posted by Adam Smith
A couple points I missed in prevoius discussions:

1. Somebody once said that the population of Israel was 60 percent Jewish, 40 percent Palestinian. Were those figures for Israel + Jerusalem + West Bank + Gaza, or for Israel within pre 1967 borders?

This is correct for Eretz Yisrael from the West of the River.
In Israel proper, this is 81:19.

2. What is the Israeli government's intention for the ultimate dispositon of settlements in the occupied territories? My understanding (assumption??) has been that these settlements would be abandoned / demolished / turned over / whatever in return for a lasting and enforceable peace agreement. True? False? Answer depends on who is in government? Nobody knows?

The Likud doesnt support remooving all settlements, but I believe that they will agree to keep the 2-3 big blocks and removing the rest, as proposed by Barak in Camp David. Of course that while in the opposition they fiercely objected to these ideas, but when they are in power things change.
Many in the Labor will agree to removing all settlements, but this wont pass in the referendum, so they also have the Barak proposal and nothing more.

Anything to the left, like Meretz and the Arab Parties are advocating the removing of all settlement, and to the right keeping them all.

[Eli]

Summary of the Israeli actions so far :

Few empty structures were destroyed. As usual.
The PA is now a "terrorist supporting entity"(doh!), and the Labor party considers leaving the goverment(about time...they cant understand that Oslo is dead).

[Zylka]

It's funny how the world expects Israel to be the better side again and again, when any length of calm is ultimately broken by a muslim fanatic monkey killing a handfull of civilians. The Palestinian cause will not accept Israel as a state through a lack of Israeli retaliation (among any other scenario) - as they have proven time and again.

My full support to Israeli military action. I too would have smiled watching those helicopters go by, yet only if civilian casualties were somehow completely ruled out. For now I can only watch such developments with a straight face, knowing it is the only choice.

Honestly, for those of you opposed to Israeli strikes - what the hell is the alternative???

[Imran Siddiqui]

muslim fanatic monkey

Gotta love racism on the forums

And they could go after the groups that actually DID IT. Such as Hamas or Islamic Jihad, and not after Arafat, who really can't do jack **** with respect to the other groups.

[Zylka]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

muslim fanatic monkey

Gotta love racism on the forums

And they could go after the groups that actually DID IT. Such as Hamas or Islamic Jihad, and not after Arafat, who really can't do jack **** with respect to the other groups.

Racism? Go away you indignant little schizo, it's the same as calling some bloody KKK Christian fanatic a "bald monkey". ROLLEYES ROLLEYES HAR HAR DAR YEW IS RACIST.

They're not going after Arafat, they could have killed him long ago had they wanted. They're destroying infrastructure, thereby telling him as well as the rest of PA to get their f*cking acts together in rounding up these filthy zealots, or it could get a lot worse.

Oh, was that last comment racist as well??? Oh poor you, Mr. hard done by.