The Israeli Retaliation Begins

[Imran Siddiqui]

Let's see... you called a non-white person a monkey. Yep, sounds racist to me. And no, I've never heard of a white person called a monkey. Keep decieving yourself, but you've never had a clean track record on that account. As I recall correctly, you were banned by MtG for a racist comment.

And yes they are going after Arafat now... or do you think his helicopters being targeted was just infrastructure

[Zylka]

You're an idiot, they are not going after Arafat now - they are trying to scare the sh*t out of him and force him to act. And yes, helicopters are considered infrastructure. If they are going after him, he will be dead within the next week and I'll eat my words.

A non white person called a monkey = racist, great conclusion! When I and others quite often call other white people monkeys (for a variety of reasons), that must obviously be racist as well!

I can call suicide bomber zealot muslim monkeys whatever I want. I can call bella-clava capped catholic monkeys whatever the hell I want.

The only thing racist here is suicide bombings against innocent civilians on the basis of their religion. You can delude yourself into thinking otherwise, but in the end you are defending muslim terrorsists (for whatever unrelated reason, I'm pretty confused myself).

I was banned by MtG for making a reactionary quip regarding suicide bombing muslim fanatics out of poor judgement - pretty bloody ironic now, eh?

[Zylka]

Meanwhile, here is some appropriate reading regarding your hard done by monkey zealots. HAHAHAHA Sound familiar?

"Crazed Palestinian Gunmen Angered by Stereotypes"

http://www.theonion.com/onion3108/crazedgunman.html

[Jules]

Honestly, for those of you opposed to Israeli strikes - what the hell is the alternative???

Ok, I was going to refer you previous posts I made to the ME threads during the summer, but now I can't find them in my profile. Do old posts to the OT forum get deleted eventually? Fortunately I've saved my better posts in Word format. I attach the relevant one here.

Once again I see this thread, like many others on the subject of the ME, degenerating into a spat over which news source is more reliable or Palestinian POV absolutely right vs. Israeli POV absolutely right and mutually exclusive. Don't make me come in here!

Although I'll admit I'm pleasantly surprised by Gian's remarks. Looks like even hardcore conservatives are allowed to change their mind. Spooky.
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Edit: In short, my Aug. 12 post highlights the need for world leaders to find a "strategic flank" for attacking the problems in the ME. In a region so brutalized and humiliated by the lingering effects of colonialism, the possibility of economic development is the best choice of principle with which to bring together the people of the ME. Without it, there can be no durable peace in the region. Consider, for example, the Oslo peace process during which economic conditions in the West Bank and Gaza actually worsened.

[Zylka]

Originally posted by Jules

Ok, I was going to refer you previous posts I made to the ME threads during the summer, but now I can't find them in my profile.

Brief summation even?

Given the agendas of both sides, the only choice scenario I see is Israel taking complete control of eradicating Hamas, etc. Any Palestinian authority who will not give full support to such measures (for whatever reason) should step down and forget about the Palestinian state until someone eliminates these groups - and Israel would be the fastest to act. It's a problem simplified, but what are the other options?

[Eli]

More empty structures are being bombed now...

[Dis]

peace will never exist. I always figured this, but is now more apparant.

[Rogan Josh]

I must admit, I am a little bit confused by the Israeli argument? Are they saying that Fatah were responsible for the attacks? I thought Hamas had claimed responsibility?

Or are they claiming that Arafat should have been able to control the actions of an indepentent terrorist organisation (Hamas) opperating outside of Palestine controlled areas? Isn't it the Israelis' job to control security in Israel? Imagine the outcry if the British had bombed Dublin for not stopping IRA attacks in Northern Ireland.

I am also a little confused as to why the Israeli army have been shelling civilian buildings? Is this an attempt to kill the next generation of terrorists before they grow up - or is it a pre-emptive strike against the mothers of the future terrorists before they are born?

The Irgun was not a terrorist organization, since it did not target civillians.

So were all the civilians who were killed simply murdered by accident? Even if they were the killing of British soldiers and diplomats in peace time still make Irgun a terrorist organisation.

Furthermore, the state of Israel was founded by Mapai, not the Irgun.

Oh - you mean the Irgun is to Mapai what Hamas is to Fatah? Interesting - so your argument of why Fatah are terrorists surely implies that the Israeli government is a terrorist organisation too? But by implication, that would make the Iraeli citizens the supporters of terrorists? Is this what you are saying? I don't think George will like that.

[Jules]

Fresh airstrikes in Gaza ongoing.
CNN's reporting 2 dead and up to 80 injured so far.

[Eli]

Gaza, Tul-Karem, Rammalah...

[Jules]

A non white person called a monkey = racist, great conclusion!

Actually, Howard Cossell got into hot water doing that during a football game where he referred to a black running back as "running like a little monkey". In hindsight it was a perfectly innocuous remark since he often spoke of his children that way while they played. Just goes to show you how things like that can be misinterpreted.

[Eli]

Israel knows exactly where Arafat is, we attacked a nearby building today. One bomb to there and he's dead.
So if Israel had wanted to kill him, he would've been already dead.

[Monoriu]

Originally posted by Rogan Josh
I must admit, I am a little bit confused by the Israeli argument? Are they saying that Fatah were responsible for the attacks? I thought Hamas had claimed responsibility?

Or are they claiming that Arafat should have been able to control the actions of an indepentent terrorist organisation (Hamas) opperating outside of Palestine controlled areas? Isn't it the Israelis' job to control security in Israel? Imagine the outcry if the British had bombed Dublin for not stopping IRA attacks in Northern Ireland.

Bin Laden bombed New York. The Taliban is protecting him. Yes they are two different organizations but since the Taliban refused to hand over Bin Laden and his associates the US have to overthrow the Taliban first. Same thing with Arafat and Hamas. Its the Isreelis job to control security in Israel but its Arafats job to stop all terrorist activity in Gaza and West Bank.

[Jules]

Originally posted by Zylka
Meanwhile, here is some appropriate reading regarding your hard done by monkey zealots. HAHAHAHA Sound familiar?

"Crazed Palestinian Gunmen Angered by Stereotypes"

http://www.theonion.com/onion3108/crazedgunman.html

Oh, wow!

[MOBIUS]

So Hamas is responsible, but Israel attacks the PA...

Why not go after the real perpetrators!!? You know, the people that actually carried out the attack!

The PA is supposed to be arresting Hamas members, but Israel bombs the Police stations and Internal Security stations...

So Arafat is supposed to round up Hamas? With what? stick and stones and a couple of crippled policemen!!? How can you expect the PA to act when you hamstring them!? Do you think these Hamas members are going to come peacefully when to do so will be signing their death warrant!? Not on your life, especially when if arrested they would be like sitting ducks in what's left of the PA's police stations! Like when the Hamas leader that was killed the other week was targeted when he was in jail!!!

Israel is not going after Arafat, but his helicopters have been destroyed. (Can he use them? No - so they targeted him, even if they did not intend killing him!)

Even Shimon Peres (the one person I respect in the Israeli govt.) has condemned these attacks!!!

As for Irgun not being a terrorist organisation, tell that the the victims of the King David's Hotel Massacre! IIRC another Israeli PM, Menachim Begin was the leader of that particular bunch of murderers!

As for the connection with Mandela and Arafat, I like that analogy. Funnily enough, although the Israeli mob frequently calls him a terrorist I never see any evidence... So, what atrocities has Arafat himself committed, just to get a sense of perspective here. Note, I'm not denying he has - I just want to know what!

I think that Sharon wants to topple the PA from within, the moment radicals gain power he has all the excuses he needs to declare war and retake the occupied territories for good!

Remember, he is the principal instigator of the settlement programme - they won't be dismantled while he is PM, therefore there will NEVER be peace while Sharon is in power!!!