iPod shuffle, price vs the competition?

[DRoseDARs]

I'm curious what you think of the Zen Micro. I haven't really looked that closely at mp3 players in a few years (not after the two lemons I bought in the early days of such devices, currently on my 3rd ... an el-cheapo one).

[Asher]

I love the Micro from what I've seen. I'm waiting for a 20GB version years down the road.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by MarkG
well you're not a non-tech woman so we cant really use your opinion as a basis for discussion

That's basically correct. I was recently in the company of a non-tech woman who bought an ipod.

I'm basically the mac support guy for some of the people in the department. This means I get paid to help people sort out their mac purchases and set up their computers with things like FTP and Classical Greek support.

So I'm in the campus store with a female colleague who is buying a new computer and printer. They have an ipod mini display rack. I point this out and she has a look, then goes away, comes back, has another look. Then she complains that she'd really like one but she can't be bothered with complicated technology.

I point out that it is plug and play and will automatically sync. It takes me about 10 seconds to show her how the controls work. So she decides to buy one, loving the look of the thing and the promise of ease of use.

So we set it up (i.e. I plug it in) and she asks how to buy music online. I just tell her about the itunes store.

So it's now been quite a long time since then. The only thing she has complained about is that she is spending too much money at the itunes store, in part because it is so easy. I usually get an email every couple of weeks about some computer problem she is having (not a technical problem, more along the lines of "how do I...?"). I asked her about the ipod and she said it's fine and appears to be idiot proof. Not one problem - that is a record.

Most people are like her. They don't want or need complicated solutions from multiple vendors. They need something simple that does the job with no hassles. That is why the ipod and itunes are the market leaders. It has little to do with advertising - kids know when they are being told what's "cool" and in any case most ipod owners I know are the same age as me or older and have no interest in fashion at all.

Why go after the very small market of computer geeks and technophiles when you can sell things to ordinary people?

When the other companies wake up to this, Apple will lose marketshare. So far they don't seem to get it.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Marketing is all about image when you're dealing with a product with no real advantages or selling points.

Not true at all. How many selling points can do in a 30 second ad? Or a print ad to gain the attention of the reader? If you want an example of technology based on image, a good example is the digital camera market, where coolness of a certain camera is stressed, whether it is design of the product or something else.

And there are plenty of cars that have great selling points, but like to advertise based on an image or style. Mercedes Benz is a great example, as is the H2.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Asher

Link that. if it's anything like your comment about Paul Thurrott being "excited" for Apple's new lineup (which is an amazing conclusion to be drawn from this article, called "Cheaper iMac? Who Cares?...)

Think pwned. From Thurrott's blog a few days after that article.

http://www.internet-nexus.com/

My opinions about the MacWorld Expo 2005 keynote--and the products Apple CEO Steve Jobs announced--might just surprise you. The mile-high view is that Apple hit a home run: Most of the new products they announced are quite exciting and it appears the company has actually figured out a way to grow Mac market share. Suddenly, I'm excited about the Mac again, though I remain a lot clearer-headed about Apple than most Mac fanatics. Here's my rundown of the keynote.

Apple retail stores
Apple has over 100 retail stores around the world (most in the US), which are now hosting over 1 million visitors a week. "20 MacWorlds a week, isn't that incredible?" Jobs asked. Maybe, I'm not sure. How many "visitors" does Best Buy or Barnes & Noble host a week, per each 100 stores? Is this figure high or low? We're in the computer industry, so we can't really say. I have a hard time imagining how boring it would be to watch any other CEO talk about retail store openings.

Anyway, Apple's retail stores appear to being doing well by the company. They are very Apple: Sparse, brightly lit, and not particularly warm feeling. They look like high-tech Gap stores. But they represent Apple very clearly, so if you're into that kind of thing, you'll be attracted to it.

Grade: A. Apple's stores have exceeded my expectations.

I think that is what the evidence suggests.

iMac G5
"It is the world's most beautiful desktop computer," Jobs said, but then he did design it. Certainly, looks are what matters. But where are the features people really need, like the 9-in-1 media reader? Jobs says the new iMac gets rid of all the cables, but of course the all-in-one design ensures that there will actually be more cables because all expansion is external. When Jobs quotes from a predictably glowing Walter "Apple Lover(tm)" Mossberg review of the iMac, and the audience actually applauds as if that means something, you just know they're primed for a religious experience that will not be intruded upon by logic or facts. However, here's a fun fact: the iMac G5, despite my complaints, is currently the best-selling Mac. That's not surprising, given the competition. In his phrasing, however, Jobs suggests that it's the best selling Mac ever. But that's not the case at all, of course.

And then what? No new iMac update? Bleh.

Grade: B. The iMac G5 is a solid release though I'm not a fan of the "form over function" aspects of the new design. It needed to be updated with faster processors and bigger hard drives, however.

I think he is basically right on the button here, although I happen to like the "form".

Mac OS X Tiger
Jobs says that Mac OS X "Panther" is the most successful OS release in Apple's history. He also noted that there are over 14 million active Mac OS X users, and Apple has "completed the transition." That's far short of the 25 million users Apple typically claims, but is probably a lot more accurate.

What's next? Tiger, of course, the fifth "major release" of Mac OS X. It's "on schedule" for the first half of 2005. It allows for 64-bit memory addressing. It's more Windows compatible. It will automatically sync with other Macs over .Mac. Safari will add RSS support. Etc.

[..] (he complains about the press jumping on Gates for his demo problems, but not Jobs (fairly in my view).

In any event, Spotlight makes for a great (if overly long) demo, when it isn't crashing spectacularly. It's typical of Jobs' Apple, with a gorgeous UI. I'm sure Spotlight will work just great when it ships.

Speaking of overly long demos, the Tiger demo goes on for far too long. It just gets monotonous. There's a new version of Mail.app. Fantastic. QuickTime 7 with H264 video compression and live window scaling on resize. Great. Dashboard, which Apple "invented" (ahem), presumably, because of some need. Whatever. A new iChat with multi-party video conferencing. Naturally. Shipping "long before" Longhorn. Of course it is. We get it.

On that note, Mac OS X Tiger will be a solid release, no doubt about it. Is it enough to sway Windows users? No, of course not. But I am utterly impressed with Apple's ability to deliver with Mac OS X. As Jobs and Apple fans often note, Microsoft talks about Longhorn, but Apple just keeps plugging away with their OS. Good for them. And if you're into technology, you just have to love OS X.

Grade: A. Mac OS X Tiger will be the best release of Mac OS X ever, and it will deliver on some Longhorn features about a year before Microsoft gets around to doing so.

I think that's fair too.

iLife '05
Apple's suite of digital media applications is unparalleled, and iLife '05 is even better, though iTunes hasn't been updated at all.

With iPhoto '05, Apple appears to answer a lot of the standard complaints, including the performance problems and full-featured photo editing. The new organizational features look good too. The Calendar view is derivative of other products, like Adobe PhotoShop Album, as is the editing dashboard, but whatever: Every photo app should have this stuff. Jobs really beat the heck out of the iPhoto demo, by the way: I was almost fast asleep by the time he finished.

iMovie '05 gets better performance and non-destructive trimming (finally, on both). It gets a feature called Magic iMovie that rips off Sony's Movie Shake, and it gets HD editing capabilities, which is sweet, though the performance of the latter during the demo was pretty bad. Jobs brought out Sony president Kunitake Ando to discuss a consumer grade Sony HD camcorder and how that product, along with Apple's HD software, will help usher in the year of HD. It was a good moment, an honest moment, and one reminiscent of Microsoft announcing its partnership with TiVo a week earlier.

iDVD '05 has new themes as you might expect, but it also features much simpler no-edit DVD creation, which is important, and now supports all writeable DVD formats, which is overdue. Overall, a small update, but to an already excellent application.

GarageBand '05 ... Eh. I'm sure the six people that use it are interested in whatever changed in this release. The ultimate niche application, and one that bears no resemblance at all to other iLife applications for some reason.

No iTunes update? Pfft.

The price? $79. Bravo! Bravo, I say, bravo!

Grade: A. There is nothing like iLife '05 on the PC side. We have parts of it, of course, free in XP, and you can get third party apps for various things. But $79 for this much stuff, all of it seamlessly integrated? My God.

I think he is wrong about Garageband. Even a doofus like me can get impressive results in a very short time. Musical people love it.

Mac mini

Why doesn't Apple offer a stripped-down Mac is that is more affordable? "You know, I wish I had a nickel for every time someone asked me that," Jobs quipped before introducing the Mac mini. Essentially an iBook G4 without the LCD screen, the Mac mini represents a bold move on Apple's part: Jobs had always sworn that he wasn't interested in competing in the bargain basement world of sub-$1000 PCs. But with the mini, that's exactly what Apple's doing, though in typical Apple fashion, it doesn't include features--like a keyboard, mouse, and screen--that $500 PCs typically offer. And that mini will actually set you back more than an eMac when you deck it out in usable form.

So does it suck? Oh no. It does not suck. It does not suck at all. The Mac mini is a revolutionary product, one whose ramifications will be felt around the PC industry for months to come. I love it. I love that they did this.

The Mac mini is drool-worthy. The Mac mini is beautiful. The Mac mini is affordable. The Mac mini is small, quiet, and elegant. Like an iPod, it has trade-offs when compared to similarly-priced PC products. But you know what? I don't care. They're going to sell millions of these things. PC people will be able to get into a Mac for next to nothing. And Mac market share will grow. Mark my words. This is big stuff. Well, it's small. The box. Nevermind.

I love Mac mini. I love Apple for making Mac mini. And I love the thought of this thing turning around the Mac's fortune. All these years of over-pricing their products and Apple totally hit it out of the park this time. The 1.25 GHz version is just $499, though you'll need at least a RAM update to 512 MB. The 1.42 GHz version is just $599.

Let me address some concerns. Yes, a SuperDrive is extra. RAM is extra. The monitor, mouse and keyboard will add up. Yes, the 32 MB 1999-era video card is a joke. You know what? Who cares? The Mac mini rocks. I want one.

Grade: A. It's about time. The Mac is back, baby.

I was astonished at this. I am less enamoured of the mac mini than he is.

iTunes Music Store
Jobs described iTunes as the "world's most popular online music store." It may simply be the world's most popular online service, period. Despite selling middling quality songs that only work on the iPod, iTunes has done gangbuster business and it shows no signs of slowing down at all. Apple has sold over 230 million songs to date, and those songs are now selling at a rate of 1.25 millions song per day. The service has a 70 percent market share despite all the WMA-based competition. Apple sold 1 million iTunes gift cards between Thanksgiving and the end of 2004. This is, as they say, all good news. No, great news.

Grade: A. I don't like Apple's lock-in strategy, but you can't argue with success. iTunes is the standard by which all other online music services are measured. So far, none are measuring up.

Fair enough.

iPod
Apple sold 4.5 million iPods during the 2004 holiday season, up from 733,000 iPods during the 2003 holiday season. That garnered a lot of applause, but it was well below the 5 million figure most analysts expected. Apple has sold over 10 million iPods totally so far.

There were no changes to iPod, iPod Photo, iPod U2 Special Edition, or the iPod mini, which is odd. The mini, especially, needs a bigger hard drive and a lower price.

Grade: B. Most iPods are still too expensive, and they're not compatible with non-Apple services, but they're selling amazingly well.

OK.

iPod shuffle
The iPod shuffle caused a lot of dithering on my part. My initial reaction was scorn: What, no screen? The competition has screens. But you know what? As with the Mac mini, this product--and its limitations--actually make sense. First of all--and this is astonishing--the iPod shuffle is actually cheaper than its competition. Amazing. Second, when you consider the people who will use such a device (say, someone working out in a gym) and where they will use it (a gym, jogging, etc.), the lack of screen doesn't matter. You're going to play a playlist and that's it. Suddenly, the iPod shuffle's major limitation makes sense.

As with the Mac mini, Jobs had pledged never to get into the bargain basement flash-based MP3 player market. But the iPod shuffle--like the Mac mini--proves that Apple is very capable of creating an excellent low-end solution when they really want to. If you're looking for a flash player, this looks like a great choice.

Grade: A. I don't need one, but you might.

Again, quite fair.

And weird that Thurrott should say these things. He is one of Apple's harshest critics.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
And there are plenty of cars that have great selling points, but like to advertise based on an image or style. Mercedes Benz is a great example, as is the H2.

Are you kidding me?

They have NO great selling points -- Mecedes Benz is overpriced crap and the H2 is a glorified Yukon, but uglier.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Asher
Are you kidding me?

They have NO great selling points -- Mecedes Benz is overpriced crap and the H2 is a glorified Yukon, but uglier.

You are an idiot aren't you? Benz and H2 have no selling points . The automobile market doesn't rely on image and style at all... nope. Not in the Asherverse.

You ever driven a Benz?

[Asher]

Originally posted by Agathon
Think pwned. From Thurrott's blog a few days after that article.

Think pwned?

I asked you to link about Thurrott claiming that WMP is an inferior copy of iTunes, and you give me a couple pages of MacWorld BS?

You need to actually address what I asked for to even begin the road to pwn4g3.

[Agathon]

I don't see Microsoft saying "use Windows XP to be cool, just like everyone else that is cool".

That would be an improvement over their stupid, sentimental ads with kids in schools.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
You are an idiot aren't you? Benz and H2 have no selling points . The automobile market doesn't rely on image and style at all... nope. Not in the Asherverse.

Strawman -- I never said they don't rely on image and style at all.

I said they don't have any true selling points beyond that.

Mercedes-Benz are one of the most unreliable vehicles on the road, and they're trending downwards. They have initial quality and long-term quality issues. They are being outstyled and outsold and outpowered by their competitors.

And as for H2s -- they're far less capable than real hummers. In fact, the Military refuses to use them. The H2 is a Yukon with a different body style, designed to look tough and utilitarian, when in reality extreme off-roading is discouraged.

H2 is the prime example of selling image over any substantive selling points. It presents the image of a big, hulking, bad-ass off-road vehicle, when it's just as capable as the Yukon it's based off of, but far more expensive. It's all image, again -- and it's something I think people are incredibly stupid for buying into.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Agathon
That would be an improvement over their stupid, sentimental ads with kids in schools.

Is that just because you're sore at how fast MS took the educational market away from Apple?

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Asher

Think pwned?

I asked you to link about Thurrott claiming that WMP is an inferior copy of iTunes, and you give me a couple pages of MacWorld BS?

You need to actually address what I asked for to even begin the road to pwn4g3.

I was responding to the funny article you posted, and your accusation that I had claimed Thurrott did not say things he plainly did.

Anyway, since you asked.

From Thurrott's review of WMP 10

http://www.winsupersite.com/reviews/wmp10.asp

Though WMP 10 is less cluttered than previous WMP versions, it's easy to return WMP 10 to a state of UI complexity fair easily. Simply enter any of its "modes"--Now Playing, for example--and the UI is suddenly transformed to include a number of bizarre little buttons once again, in this case, the Select Now Playing Options button (to access Visualizations, Info Center View, various Plug-ins, and several enhancements), a status area for the currently accessed service, a View Full Screen button, a Video Pane Maximize/Restore button, and so on. But some of the modes are really nasty: Get into the Media Library, select the appropriate options, and you're suddenly looking at a pretty busy application (Figure). I mean, compare this clumsiness to the clean iTunes user interface, and you'll see what I mean (Figure).

Times change. Today, Apple's iTunes is the simplest, most elegant media player available for any platform, and the release of WMP 10 doesn't change that. Yes, iTunes has its problems, and it certainly doesn't offer the wide range of media compatibility that WMP offers, but it's still simpler and arguably more popular with the key demographic these companies are trying to reach: Young people. Whether its high-school aged kids, college students, or young adults, Apple can do no wrong, and for good reason: Its products are well-designed and easy to use to a fault. WMP 10 looks somewhat amateurish by comparison, despite its many benefits over Apple's admittedly limited player.


But iTunes also offers some basic features that WMP 10, tragically, lacks. First, it's compatible with the iPod, the world's best-selling portable audio player, a feat Microsoft can't seem to manage. Second, iTunes lets you easily share music from PC to PC (or from Mac to Mac or Mac to PC), a feature that WMP, inexplicably, still lacks. Meanwhile, Microsoft has expended (arguably wasted) years of effort and millions of dollars to ensure that you can share music from your WMP 10 with every conceivable device on the planet, regardless of the business sense. But it has somehow managed to ignore the most obvious music sharing experience, that of PC to PC sharing, and given how many homes now have two or more PCs, that missing functionality is all the more incomprehensible.

From the conclusion of the article:

Overall, Windows Media Player 10 is a huge improvement over previous Windows Media Player versions, though it still falls short of the competition in a few key areas. If you've bought into the Microsoft-oriented music world in any way, however--perhaps with a Media Center PC, Portable Media Center device, or by using a WMA-compatible online music service--you simply must upgrade to WMP 10. This release offers major improvements for discovering and buying, and subscribing to content online, sports an improved UI, and integrates nicely with a coming generation of portable devices. And if up-and-coming music subscription services, like that now offered by Napster, take off, the release of WMP 10 will be heralded as the watershed moment of what is clearly still a nascent market. That said, users interested solely in music playback will likely find little reason to abandon iTunes.

As a music player, itunes is better. And that is all itunes is. WMP fails on this account.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Once again... you ever driven a Benz? The smooth ride, handling, and acceleration is definetly worth $30,000 more than a Camry. Btw, which of its competitors has an ad campaign saying it is more reliable than Mercedes? BMW? Nope. Jaguar? Nope. Infinity? Nope. Lexus? Nope. All base their ad campaigns on image and style.

And have you ever looked INSIDE an H2? Yeah, its just like a Yukon (but loaded on the inside like a mini-limo). Yeah, that isn't a selling point of a vehicle (and btw, that has little to do with image or style, but rather quality of the materials inside the cabin). .

And the automobile market has no selling points beyond image and style? Well, then, obviously in the digital music market, there are no selling points beyond image and style because Apple is destroying its competitors, forcing companies like Creative to go for an Apple-look for its newer models. The Micro, for instance, is a conscience attempt to try to out-style the iPod mini. Maybe they are finally starting to get it... perhaps the digital music market doesn't have a 'true selling point' (as defined by Asher) .

[Asher]

Before I go to bed I'd love to share this wonderful quote from Agathon:

Why go after the very small market of computer geeks and technophiles when you can sell things to ordinary people?

When the other companies wake up to this, Apple will lose marketshare. So far they don't seem to get it.

Everyone should read that knowing just how Apple's business strategies turn out in the long-term.

I would hardly consider Zen Touch or Nomad Muvos as being targetted towards the technophile and computer geeks -- hell, it doesn't even support OGG or run Linux! The product in that category would be the iRiver players.

The Zens are targetted for ordinary people as well.

This is yet another example of baseless rhetoric on your behalf...

[Asher]

Originally posted by Agathon
As a music player, itunes is better. And that is all itunes is. WMP fails on this account.

Smoke and mirrors.

Which part of that article claims WMP is a poor copy of iTunes, again?

That would be a remarkable achievement indeed, given that WMP has existed years before iTunes ever did.