Personal ID's, how is it in your country?

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by molly bloom
It has long been a tradition in this country that your identity is your own business, not the state's, the monarch's nor the police's, and that they have to provide a reason for enquiring after your identity.

Here in Hong Kong everybody is required to carry an ID card courtesy of our former British overlords.

Long long time ago we were issued ID cards but not legally required to carry with them wherever we went. Then some time back, starting with the surge of Vietnamese boat people IIRC, we would need to have our ID cards about us at all times when we're outside, and that the police could check anyone at anytime.

Initially, an ID card only had a photo. Then, several years ago, some idiot came up with the idea of a smart card ID card, so everybody would need to exchange the old one for the stupid card ID card, which stores thumb prints among other things.

Here you need an ID card to open a bank account, get a credit card, get your passport, get a job, etc.

[Jon Miller]

well, yes

I see your point

it is just that driver licenses make sense to me

because a lo tof people die when oyu dont have them

JM

[Thorgal]

If they don't, how will people carrying IDs help?

If there are 200 people around do you imagine the police accompanying each one to his house to verify his identity? Or taking you to police station until your identity is confirmed somehow? In such case the ID would be a matter of comfort for everyone not only in a crimen scenery but in any situation where identification is needed

OTOH, speaking about ID itself, I dont know other countries but in Spain for instance police has fingerprints of every citizen obtained through ID in a database, so they can know a fingerprint owner in a matter of minutes even if they has no clue about who is the criminal. You cant register at a hotel without presenting your ID. Hotels are networked with police so they can know where anybody is instantly.

In general ID number is required in all public or privated document where is necessary leaving note of the applicant's personal identity in a simple and univocal manner.

[Locutus]

Originally posted by alva
People had the same view on things when seat-belts became mandatory.

By not carrying seatbelts you could fly out of a car window and are thus a danger to other people. Who am I endangering by not carrying a passpord?

- New laws will probably make some cops overzealus

Various police representative have said in the media that this sort of stuff may happen more often if people don't learn to carry their ID. The law will be enforced strictly, now AND in the future. IMO this will last as long as the current explosive social situation of intolerance and hatred. In other words, a long time...

Though that particularly incident is regrettable and the officers involved should be punished

That's exactly the problem. I would agree with this and if this happend I would be happy. However, the police and from what I can tell most of the people in this country disagree with this completely (or at least they're been no real outcry over this, as there should have been). No action whatsoever is being taken against the officiers in question. They acted fully within their jurisdiction, never did do anything wrong. Noone seems to be regretting this situation, it is now apparently acceptable that this happens.

Why not do as we do and get a ID system in place, much easier...

Don't tell me, tell the government... I've been arguing for years for a proper all-in-one ID system. I carry around almost a dozen cards for various purposes already (from passpord to bankpass to bus card; plus I have 3 different cards for my uni alone!), it can't be that hard to integrate them all into one multi-purpose card (using a compartmentised design so that there doesn't have to be any fear of Big Brother situations).

So me having an ID ( and the fact that they drove by with the lady in question telling them it wasn't us) got us out of the situation in a matter of minutes insteead of having to go to the police-station etc.

So in this case, I could argue that my freedom was less infrinched upon due to my freedom being limited by having to carry a mandotory ID.

No, you had to choice on whether or not to carry the ID. We don't have the choice, unless you count jailtime as a viable option...

Not only did this save some of my time but also that of the cops which they can spend on...catching real criminals.

So why are the randomly stopping people in the street to ask for their ID? Plus, in 99% of cases just callin in to the station to check if the data matches with the computer is sufficient.

But again most importantly: why do I have to go out of my way to prove I'm not a criminal? That's a complete reversal of the justice system. The police has the duty to prove I *am* one. The initiative lies with the cops (that's their job, that's what I pay my hefty taxes for), not the civilians.

Yes, they will..the first two weeks.

No, that's the problem. Considering the climate here I know it will be much longer than that. The cops have become much stricter on many issues. Squatters used to be respected as long as they didn't bother anyone, noone ever made a big deal out of riding a bike without proper lighting or ignoring a red light on a quiet crossing. The cops have become much stricter on everything for years now, and many people in this country seem to be cheering them on (especially the right-wing conservatives in their big houses and mercedeses -- funny how the only thing these people seem to complain about is that the cops are so strict on speeding). Of course, it's mostly the petty crimes that get dealt with, the white collar criminals can still go their merry way, even more now than in the past.

You can bet your arse that the cops will be cracking down on this hard time for years to come, fines are an excellent form of extra income in this time where funds are being cut but a higher number of criminals is expected to be caught (and in the statistics that count no differentation is being made between different forms of crime)...

Eugh, we already have ID's, so why move to this place?

Like you said, you've only been asked for your ID once in your life. I've been asked once in the one week that the law has been in force.

[Locutus]

Originally posted by Thorgal
If there are 200 people around do you imagine the police accompanying each one to his house to verify his identity? Or taking you to police station until your identity is confirmed somehow? In such case the ID would be a matter of comfort for everyone not only in a crimen scenery but in any situation where identification is needed

No need to accompany them all home or whatever. Just ask for their name, date of birth and address and check over intercom with the station if this data matches with the computer. Only the mismatches need further attention.

Plus, what gives the police the right to just suspect 200 perfectly innocent people? (With maybe one or two exceptions, though if the person(s) in question has any sense he fled the scene long before the cops arrived.) In this country, at least until recently, there actually had to be some form of (preliminary) evidence before questioning someone as a (potential) suspect is allowed. Asking for a witness testimony is one thing, but you don't need someone's identity to do that...

That system has worked fine in this country for 60 years (our crime rates have always been among the lowest in Europe), so why change the law and force those 200 people to suddenly have to disprove that they commited that crime?

In general ID number is required in all public or privated document where is necessary leaving note of the applicant's personal identity in a simple and univocal manner.

Yes, and once again I'm not opposing this. I'm opposing the Gestapo actions where you have to show Ausweis NOW or be thrown in jail.

[Shogun Gunner]

In society, there must be laws. When designed well, they protect the citizens. Yes, sometimes this is not how it's worked out.

However, in all the countries listed in this thread, there is an expectation of it's citizens that they will be safe when travelling in public. You can argue all day about whether it's "right" for the government to mandate ID cards, but the bottom line is that it is a tool of law enforcement and a majority of people want to give the government the means to protect it's citizens.

When you are ready to trade safety and the other benefits of government, then sure, you don't need to have/carry an ID.

[alva]

By not carrying seatbelts you could fly out of a car window and are thus a danger to other people. Who am I endangering by not carrying a passpord?

You try to tell this to an American.

So why are the randomly stopping people in the street to ask for their ID? Plus, in 99% of cases just callin in to the station to check if the data matches with the computer is sufficient.

But again most importantly: why do I have to go out of my way to prove I'm not a criminal? That's a complete reversal of the justice system. The police has the duty to prove I *am* one. The initiative lies with the cops (that's their job, that's what I pay my hefty taxes for), not the civilians.

AFAIK, a cop here is not allowed to ask for ID randomly.
So there is a problem with how this particular law was made and how it is being implemented, not with ID cards as such.
As with anything, abuse is right around the corner.

[Locutus]

Originally posted by Shogun Gunner
When you are ready to trade safety and the other benefits of government, then sure, you don't need to have/carry an ID.

What benefits? Was the Netherlands before January 1st less safe than it is now? Is Britain less safe because it doesn't oblige its citizens to carry ID cards wherever they go? Are less crimes being commited, are criminals finding different lines of work because of this? Are less people's life in danger simply because they carry cards? Of course not, it just provided a false sense of security, which actually makes it easier to commit crimes (and to top it off also makes more lost/stolen identity cards available to criminals)...

Originally posted by alva
AFAIK, a cop here is not allowed to ask for ID randomly.
So there is a problem with how this particular law was made and how it is being implemented, not with ID cards as such.
As with anything, abuse is right around the corner.

I cited examples of reasons earlier in the thread: they are very general and can be applied at any time. Again I refer to my example of the ME guys just hanging around. Never mind that they were immigrants, they were just hanging around, not bothering anyone, not causing any trouble. Yet the got stopped. The reason that a cop supposedly has to have were stretched to include doing nothing. So yes, effectively cops can ask for IDs at random, at least here in the Netherlands with this new law.

Again, yes, the existance IDs cards in themselves is OK. However, being forced to be able to show them at ANY time is by definition a reversal of the justice system. If the cops have a good reason to see the card, fine, they can see it. But that doesn't mean you should be thrown in jail for not carrying it on you. That means the cops should give you a chance to get your card from home or wheverer you have it.

[Thorgal]

No need to accompany them all home or whatever. Just ask for their name, date of birth and address and check over intercom with the station if this data matches with the computer. Only the mismatches need further attention.

But you could give the data of other person. It is not a secure method.

Plus, what gives the police the right to just suspect 200 perfectly innocent people? (With maybe one or two exceptions, though if the person(s) in question has any sense he fled the scene long before the cops arrived.) In this country, at least until recently, there actually had to be some form of (preliminary) evidence before questioning someone as a (potential) suspect is allowed. Asking for a witness testimony is one thing, but you don't need someone's identity to do that...

Of course you need. A testimony is nothing without a person ratifying it. Can you imagine a policeman saying at the trial: "i remember somebody at crime scenery saying me Mr X killed MR Y"

That system has worked fine in this country for 60 years (our crime rates have always been among the lowest in Europe), so why change the law and force those 200 people to suddenly have to disprove that they commited that crime?

It has nothing to do. It depends of a lot of factors. I mean in Spain under Franco there was virtually not crime. Hardly a example, however...

In any case...

The study says that the percentage of people who were victims of crime in a single year is "a simple but robust" way of comparing records on crime. The latest figures show the countries fall into three bands:

• England and Wales, Australia, The Netherlands and Sweden had victim rates above 24 per cent;

• Canada, Scotland, Denmark, Poland, Belgium, France and the US had rates between 20 and 24 per cent;

• Spain, Switzerland, Portugal, Japan and Northern Ireland all had rates under 20 per cent.

http://www.car-crime.com/crime_rate.htm

[Al B. Sure!]

haha! turns out us Patriot-Act having Americans who only require an ID to drive (a document that really only says that you passed the driving tests) have more freedom than you Europeans!

[Kassiopeia]

Originally posted by Pekka
We have national IDs in the form of Social Security what ever cards. Everyone has them. But no, you don't need to carry ID with you.

The SS card isn't actually an ID per se. You can have an SS card without a picture in it, and that doesn't qualify as an ID the same way an SS card with a pic, a passport, an electronic ID card or a passport would. Although when I tried to use my picless SS card as an ID in the draft, the official stared at me for a moment and then accepted it.

I don't know if the cops can just ask you for your ID for no reason. I think they can't. I mean of course they CAN, but they can't demand it I believe. Unless there's a reasonable reason to suspect you. Which is kind of a.. in the air kind of reason, but really you don't have to carry.

My understanding is that you don't have to carry any kind of ID on you, suspected of something or not. What would be the point? I'm not sure how the SS card is mandatory; you need it to get service from the National Health Service and the like, but I'm not sure if it's required by law. I got my first SS card when I was five, my sister when she was three. *shrug*

In fact Not too long ago I had a situation where I had no valid ID card of any kind (driver's license, passport) with picutre on it.

Ditto, as I was under 18 and hadn't needed one ever before. I had to get one to get my driver's licence ( ) so I had to get a passport. Now I have both. The electronic ID card is some sort of bastardization between the driver's licence and the passport, you can travel with it in the Schengen countries whereas a driver's licence isn't a travel document. But usually it's cheaper on the long run to just get a passport.

[Kassiopeia]

As a Belgian it's compulsory for me to carry my ID card around all the time. I've never been asked to show it to a policeman in my entire life. Me thinks you're making a big deal about nothing.

I personally approach it from a point of view of principle, not practice. Even if the police do not ever ask people for them, they have the power to do it, and they can use that power if they want to. I see no reason why I should carry a piece of plastic with me when I go out of the house, the fact that it's not checked in practice is a moot point.

[Al B. Sure!]

So the pavement is your property? You can walk on your property without a license(ID) too.

in the USA, land of the free, you can walk on your property without having an ID.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Eli
personal IDs issued by the government exist in my country I have to get one at certain age
I have to provide a picture
There are authorised persons to whom I HAVE to show it if they ask

Same here. They're called drivers' licenses.

[alva]

in the USA, land of the free, you can walk on your property without having an ID.

You forgot the obnoxious "USA!!! USA!!! USA!!!" chanting.

Same here. They're called drivers' licenses.