Personal ID's, how is it in your country?

[Az]

There's a difference between that and being allowed to randomly stop people in the street and ask them for ID, even if they're weeding their garden, just taking a stroll, or doing their groceries, minding their own business...

or just driving...

but somehow, people caught simply driving can have their licenses checked... It's all the same, and I don't see how anyone should care about that.

[alva]

Why? What do they accomplish? Do you think terrorists will now think "oh sh*t, the Netherlans turned into a fortress, we better not go there anymore"? It's just one more in a long line of measures recently to punish the good guys for something the bad guys did. The only thing that this will lead to is far more IDs being lost or stolen, which will of course help terrorists and criminals greatly in securing false IDs. That will not only avoid them getting caught by random police searches, it will also make it easier for them to open bank accounts, enter airports, etc, etc...

Against terrorism, I assume very little, if anything.
They do help to prevent things as social security schemes/fraude etc.

[Az]

Why do you hate freedom, alva?

[alva]

They know f*ck all about me, or I wouldn't have to fill in a dozen forms when I want to request a copy of my birth certificate or fill in my taxes

So they still have the information, it's just harder to get it( more expensive/overhead/bureacracy/waste ), all that changes is that the clerk at the birth-certificate office knows f*ck all about you.

All I have to do, is show my ID card, et voila...

[alva]

Originally posted by Azazel
Why do you hate freedom, alva?

[Solver]

Personal ID here issued at the age of 16, with a picture (sensible). Can be acquired before 16, though, if neccessary. I don't have to carry it with me, and police for instance can't require me to have one. Obviously, I need it to do any legal things or stuff that requires me to confirm my identity. There is also a limited number of institutions that will probably check your ID if you want something from them.

[Flandrien]

Originally posted by Azazel
Why do you hate freedom, alva?

There is a pattern you know.

People who are used to carrying an ID around don't see them as restricting their freedom.

And why all these negative views on police ?
I know some police are racist, but I like to think of them as exceptions.
Compulsory ID cards will not make them any more racist btw.

[Krill]

Personally, I would not care if I had to carry one around with me. What I do oppose is we are forced to pay for the ID cards. Take the money needed out of bloated MPs salaries and bonuses

(A yes, I don't really like the idea 100%, I would rather wait for biometric tests to have gone through full testing first.)

[Az]

There is a pattern you know.

People who are used to carrying an ID around don't see them as restricting their freedom.

And why all these negative views on police ?
I know some police are racist, but I like to think of them as exceptions.
Compulsory ID cards will not make them any more racist btw.

Yeah, and in any case, how would racist police benefit from IDs? If they're crooked and want to pin a blame on someone, they could do it in other ways.

I don't think that one should be fined for not carrying one, but there are other ways to make people carry them. Besides, the alternative identity check, which is time consuming, is punishment enough.

[VetLegion]

What's the difference with being asked for your driver's license and being asked for your personal ID ?

Driving a car is not your fundamental right. To be allowed to do it, you need to get a license from the state.

Freedom of movement on the other hand, is your fundamental right, as guaranteed by almost every Constitution in the world.

[Az]

Driving a car is not your fundamental right.

why not? It's just another form of freedom of movement. The fact we were deprived of that basic freedom of so long doesn't mean that its not a basic freedom.

[alva]

Driving a car is not your fundamental right. To be allowed to do it, you need to get a license from the state.

Freedom of movement on the other hand, is your fundamental right, as guaranteed by almost every Constitution in the world

And a ID card restricts your movement how exactly?

Noone opposes passports, we all know they are needed, yet we oppose them in our own country, why? What's the difference between a passport and a ID card?
Do you feel - or even are - less free carrying a passport ?

[alva]

Originally posted by Flandrien


There is a pattern you know.

People who are used to carrying an ID around don't see them as restricting their freedom.

And why all these negative views on police ?
I know some police are racist, but I like to think of them as exceptions.
Compulsory ID cards will not make them any more racist btw.

I think the big difference is, that those that haven't got them, think of them as a tool for the state to impose control and restrictions on the individual, where's a we see them as a handy tool.

We see tham from a first person POV first, they see them from a third person POV first.

I personally have far bigger issues with something like CCTV where you are CONSTANTLY being monitored.
At least with a ID card, I know when it is being 'recorded'.

[Locutus]

Originally posted by alva
Doesn't happen, WWII is past us for some time now.
Just as before, a cop needs a valid reason to stop you, why would having an ID card make any difference?

I refer to my earlier example: just some ME guys hanging around, not bothering anyone, were asked to ID themselves. The police have said they'll do this more often (though they denied they're being racist of course), particularly when young people are hanging around in groups. Because we all know, young people who are just hanging around, talking to each other and having fun are all a bunch of terrorists preparing to suicide-attack the rest of us

Originally posted by Azazel
or just driving...

but somehow, people caught simply driving can have their licenses checked... It's all the same, and I don't see how anyone should care about that.

No, not just driving, at least not in the Netherlands (until recently). The cops could only stop you if you had violated traffic laws or when they were doing regulated traffic inspections, i.e. inspections that were cleared by a judge in advance, which had a set location and time, and which had a specific purpose (e.g. alcohol check, drug trafficing check, vehicle check, etc).

But regardless, anyone driving cars are a menace to society, a car is a lethal weapon. People walking around with guns or knifes get stopped as well, as are people driving a bike irresponsibly fast in areas with lots of pedestrians or small kids.

Originally posted by alva
Against terrorism, I assume very little, if anything.
They do help to prevent things as social security schemes/fraude etc.

So do you have to carry it around 24-7 for that? Do you have to be thrown in jail for a day if they catch you walking in the street without an ID? What on earth does that accomplish?

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Flandrien
People who are used to carrying an ID around don't see them as restricting their freedom.[quote]

The people of North Korea, Cuba, China or the Arab world aren't exactly complaining about lack of freedom either.

But most importantly, noone has managed to name even ONE *good* thing about carrying around IDs 24-7 yet. They don't help fight terrorism or crime, they only increase the number of illegal IDs available to criminals and terrorists, they cost a lot of money and are a pain in the arse to carry with you all the time. Why the f*ck would anyone want to make them compulsory?

And why all these negative views on police ?
I know some police are racist, but I like to think of them as exceptions.
Compulsory ID cards will not make them any more racist btw.

It was more as an illustration how random the police is using the new law. Hanging around doing nothing is apparently not illegal, because they tolerate it from some people. Yet in other cases it's apparently a menace to society, as these people's ID needs to be checked, just for hanging around. Right now it's racism against MEers and discrimination against young people, but I can only wonder who's next? It's randomly stopping people the officer in question doesn't like...

[alva]

Originally posted by Locutus


Because if you take a stroll to get some air and forgot to take it with you, the cops can arrest you and throw you in jail, or at least give you a hefty fine.

If that's not a restriction of freedom I don't know what is...

Yes, that's the theory...

However, I'm sure that if the man were to check you out completely, they could put you in jail, or fine you too.
I'm sure that you forgot to mention something on your tax return ( I do mean forgot, not "forgot"). I'm sure that upon inspecting your house, they could come up with something not a 100% compliant with regulations, be it fire-prevention or anything else.

If you break the law, you get a ticket, it's that simple.

Let me ask you this though, have you ever gotten a ticket for running a red light at 4 in the morning? Well, neither have I.

I don't even think they write tickets for not carrying your ID here. Just show them your drivers license.


They last time - and I think the only time - I got asked my ID, I was about 17.
I had long, long hair, it was late, we were outside on the street and a block away from us, a woman got mugged and we fitted the profile.
So were they right to ask for it? I think so yes, sure why not.

Other than that, I need or use it, just like the rest uses their drivers-license, when going to the bank etc...