Personal ID's, how is it in your country?

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by Spiffor

As much as I dislike some parts of the mandatory IDing, this is a non-argument.

The nazis built highways. The nazis had one of the most ambitious ecological policy ever. The nazis restored economic stability and employment. Since these policies have been held by the nazis, it proves those are horrible policies we should shun for the rest of time

No, what it shows is that Europeans like you are conditioned to accept things that others don't. There are some basic freedoms you don't have and concepts about freedom that you simply can't grasp.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
No, what it shows is that Europeans like you are conditioned to accept things that others don't. There are some basic freedoms you don't have and concepts about freedom that you simply can't grasp.

Now, this argument is a real one. I agree with what you say (although the concept of ID cards by itself is not anti-freedom, it's the use that is made of it).

But you should be aware that saying "the nazis did it" is not an argument.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Spiffor

I agree with what you say (although the concept of ID cards by itself is not anti-freedom, it's the use that is made of it).

Actually, under English law, an identity card would be anti-freedom in itself, since a person's anonymity has been a basic of civil liberties in England.


As I am not breaking the law at the moment (nor planning to) the government has no right (as yet) to request my identity or demand that I identify myself to my local constabulary, without showing due cause.

[Gangerolf]

@ the Eurocoms who think this is no big deal and claim this isn't Orwellian:
A freedom is taken away from you, you are forced to wear a bloody card, and after a while you get used to it, to the point where you actually begin to defend it! What could be more Orwellian than that? Wake up!

[/mad rant]

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Gangerolf
@ the Eurocoms who think this is no big deal and claim this isn't Orwellian:
A freedom is taken away from you, you are forced to wear a bloody card, and after a while you get used to it, to the point where you actually begin to defend it! What could be more Orwellian than that? Wake up!

[/mad rant]

I agree, which is no surprise. Essential freedoms, once taken away, are much harder to get back.

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by Gangerolf
@ the Eurocoms who think this is no big deal and claim this isn't Orwellian:
A freedom is taken away from you, you are forced to wear a bloody card, and after a while you get used to it, to the point where you actually begin to defend it! What could be more Orwellian than that? Wake up!

[/mad rant]

Yes, little Spiffor has really been exposed on this one.

[Flandrien]

Originally posted by VetLegion
It seems that trend in the world is toward less freedin, not more

trend in the world is more freedom to less people

[loinburger]

Driver's license is pretty much all I've ever needed, occasionally I've needed a passport (though strangely, even though passports are more secure than driver's licenses, there are some non driving-related things for which you often can't substitute a passport for a driver's license, e.g., buying booze, though this is solely due to the fact that most booze clerks aren't familiar with passports and hence don't trust them). I've also needed to provide a birth certificate from time to time. I forget if any of these have my fingerprints on them. My ID for work is a smart card with my fingerprint data stored on it, though they're thinking of switching to (or supplementing the data with) iris data at some point. In practice I don't think they ever use the fingerprint data, though, since the only people who would be interested in verifying the data are also the same people who don't trust the security of the ID card.

[Spiffor]

I am amazed that you people focus on ID cards that much.

IDs are far less dangerous to your privacy than the many electronic devices recording every of your moves: CCTV, cell phones, credit cards, etc. will rat you out much faster than any ID you carry.

You may reply that you're not forced to go under CCTV, that you can live without cell phones and credit cards, etc. and you're right: you can live as an ermit if you so wish. But if you ahppen to go to the supermarket for your groceries, and if you sometimes pay with your card or take money at an ATM, then you're under far closer scrutiny than you'd be with mere IDs.

The reason why IDs don't disturb me too much as a principle, whereas the fingerprinting thing bothers me immensely, is because the info on my ID is under my control. I carry my ID at all times, it's not like the police could recognize me if I didn't show it to them.
It's very different with fingerprints: the police has now recorded my fingerprints, and it can know my trace in my absence wherever I go. The fingerprinting thing is the one reason why I adamantly refuse to go to the US, incidentally (because I have a choice in that matter).

But to focus on the ID is quite weak IMHO. You would be much better served opposing the electronic rats. Because they're everywhere, and the data there will completely escape your grasp.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Spiffor
I am amazed that you people focus on ID cards that much.

IDs are far less dangerous to your privacy than the many electronic devices recording every of your moves: CCTV, cell phones, credit cards, etc. will rat you out much faster than any ID you carry.

Because they are all optional.


You are not mandated by governmental decree to carry a mobile phone. I do not possess either a mobile phone or a credit card.

C.C.T.V. I can do little about as an individual, but again this is a case where 'the people' have been convinced that C.C.T.V. offers 'protection' against street crime, vandalism, theft from hole in the wall cash machines, rogue street traders, urban terrorism, et cetera.

It certainly makes the work of the police and store detectives easier, but at the cost of unscrutinised surveillance of the public at large.

I suspect that in a similar fashion, the current government is attempting (so far not overly successfully) to convince the public at large that being forced to carry goevrnment decreed identification at all times somehow acts as a deterrent to international terrorism and benefit fraud and illegal immigration, none of which assertions have been shown to be true.

[Az]

I still don't get how me carrying a card in my wallet invades my privacy.

Say, the world is run by fascists, and I am a wanted freedom fighter, or stuff. How does the fact that people carry an ID card help them?

CCTV on the streets, btw

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by molly bloom
You are not mandated by governmental decree to carry a mobile phone. I do not possess either a mobile phone or a credit card.

I don't have a cell phone either (I hate the things) but I am genuinely curious about how you use your money without any banking card... Do you go take cash at the bank's clerk whenever your reserves are thin? Are you paid cash by your employer?

[alva]

Originally posted by molly bloom


Because they are all optional.


You are not mandated by governmental decree to carry a mobile phone. I do not possess either a mobile phone or a credit card.

That's the brilliance of it all. Not only do we allow ourselves to carry these things that actually do invade our privacy, we even pay for the bloody things but oh no, don't even think about introducing a little plastic card that combines some personal info that could cut down on bureaucracy.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Azazel
I still don't get how me carrying a card in my wallet invades my privacy.

Say, the world is run by fascists, and I am a wanted freedom fighter, or stuff. How does the fact that people carry an ID card help them?

From the Guardian article:

'To be anonymous, to go privately, to move residence without telling the authorities is a fundamental liberty which is about to be taken from us. People may not choose to exercise this entitlement to privacy, or see the point of it, but once it's gone and a vast database is built, eventually to be accessed by every tentacle of the government machine, we will never be able to claw it back. We are about to surrender a right which is precious, rare even in western democracies, and profoundly emblematic of our culture and civilisation.'



Spiffor- I simply don't live beyond my means. Again, this would seem to be rare in Western democracies these days too, if the levels of credit card debt are to be believed....

[MikeH]

Innoccent until proven guilty is a pretty universal concept. So should "not a suspect until you do something suspicious".

Compulsory ID cards suck and in the UK we already have voluntary ones - Passports and driving licenses. So we don't need them. End of story.

Oh and here they're saying that they'll cut out benefit fraud... how do prove who you are in the first place to get one? using one or more of the current id formats that is supposedly unreliable? So this is unreliable too.

Total waste of time and money, and if there's any chance of them being compulsory it's a massive violation of our freedom.