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Leading Atheist Philosopher Concludes God's Real

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  • You'd expect a reasonably competent philosopher to be aware of Leibniz!

    A continental rationalist concept called the "Principle of Sufficient Reason" easily accounts for his argument. That is to say that the incredibly complexity and unlikeliness (and thus question of probability implying intelligent design -> God) depends on the validity of contingent possibilities... look at that structurally as analysing each individual deterministic event that formed this universe in terms of it's context.

    It holds that contingent possibilities are not really contingent. For example, suppose on Monday I go and buy a lottery ticket. In the UK, the odds of me hitting the jackpot in the standard draw are a smidgen under 14'000'000 : 1. I think we can all agree that the possibility of me winning on a single ticket are fantastically unlikely. See how that is analogous to the state of the universe if not intelligently designed.

    However, suppose last Monday, I bought a lottery ticket and on the draw, I won the jackpot. Nice seven-figure sum, LA hotel room, naked and sleeping adonis figures, lines of coke, empty bottles of Stolichnaya and pink/purple typewriters all about the place. To me now, because deterministically contingent possibilities, no matter how complex, are in fact not contingent, the odds of me winning on last weeks ticket are 1, whereas next weeks ticket that hasnt been drawn yet is still 13'900'000 : 1.

    Look at it, as I often say, as a game of chess, judged on the moves that could have been made, not the moves that were made, in order to establish the context of each individual constituent move. Since in a future game the moves are yet to be made, we have nothing to look at, so continent possibilities and actual possibilies are indistinct at this stage, hence the probability. Of course, look at it from the present -> past perspective, it's fairly obvious to see here how this refutes the argument by design / teleological argument for God's existence.
    "I work in IT so I'd be buggered without a computer" - Words of wisdom from Provost Harrison
    "You can be wrong AND jewish" - Wiglaf :love:

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    • Originally posted by Boris Godunov
      Time did not yet exist at the moment of the Big Bang, so the idea of a "cause" or something preceding it at all is simply a wrong way of thinking of it).
      Don't you know the scientific law that every event that occurs in the universe must involve both space and time. So if the universe was timeless at the moment of the "Big Bang" then that event could not possibly occur.
      HAVE A DAY.
      <--- Quote by Former U.S. President Theodore "Teddy" Roosevelt
      "And there will be strange events in the skies--signs in the sun, moon, and stars. And down here on earth the nations will be in turmoil, perplexed by the roaring seas and strange tides. The courage of many people will falter because of the fearful fate they see coming upon the earth, because the stability of the very heavens will be broken up. Then everyone will see the Son of Man arrive on the clouds with power and great glory. So when all these things begin to happen, stand straight and look up, for your salvation is near!" --Luke 21:25-28
      For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the call of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, all the Christians who have died will rise from their graves. Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and remain with him forever. --1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

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      • You'd expect a reasonably competent philosopher to be aware of Leibniz!


        What does calculus have to do with it

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        • Originally posted by Mr. Nice Guy
          Don't you know the scientific law that every event that occurs in the universe must involve both space and time.


          Don't you know that's completely meaningless bull**** you just spouted.
          Last edited by Kuciwalker; December 11, 2004, 15:08.

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          • Most 'atheists' are just some sort of college frat boy pussies, looking for an excuse to **** around and live recklessly.


            No. Religion is a mild form of mental illness, as is conservatism. They are quite similar, which explains how they are often found in the same individuals.
            Only feebs vote.

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            • What does calculus have to do with it
              The PSR is attributed to Leibniz though used most famously by Russell in a debate with Copleston http://www.ditext.com/russell/debate.html.


              Don't you know that's completely meaningly bull**** you just spouted.
              Beat me to it
              "I work in IT so I'd be buggered without a computer" - Words of wisdom from Provost Harrison
              "You can be wrong AND jewish" - Wiglaf :love:

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Kuciwalker
                Uh, yes it did. The Big Bang wasn't a moment of creation, that's the whole idiocy of their point.
                Not according to the prevalent theories. They state that space and time did not exist until the BB occured. After all, if there is nothing but a singularity, there can be no time, as time is a function of space.

                In the long run, the point is that the laws of physics as we understand them did not apply at the moment of the BB. Indeed, it was the BB that gave rise to space and time.
                Tutto nel mondo è burla

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Mr. Nice Guy
                  Don't you know the scientific law that every event that occurs in the universe must involve both space and time. So if the universe was timeless at the moment of the "Big Bang" then that event could not possibly occur.
                  Oh, which scientific law states that?

                  Scientific laws as we know them did not exist at the moment of the BB, as I just said. The BB gave rise to scientific laws as we know them.

                  You put the cart before the horse.
                  Tutto nel mondo è burla

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Whaleboy
                    The PSR is attributed to Leibniz though used most famously by Russell in a debate with Copleston http://www.ditext.com/russell/debate.html.
                    Miss the ""?

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                    • Agathon, you are my favorite atheist. You know why? Because I can't remember the last time I have ever seen you use expletives or get angry when making your arguments. And for that, I have a lot of respect for you.
                      HAVE A DAY.
                      <--- Quote by Former U.S. President Theodore "Teddy" Roosevelt
                      "And there will be strange events in the skies--signs in the sun, moon, and stars. And down here on earth the nations will be in turmoil, perplexed by the roaring seas and strange tides. The courage of many people will falter because of the fearful fate they see coming upon the earth, because the stability of the very heavens will be broken up. Then everyone will see the Son of Man arrive on the clouds with power and great glory. So when all these things begin to happen, stand straight and look up, for your salvation is near!" --Luke 21:25-28
                      For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the call of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, all the Christians who have died will rise from their graves. Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and remain with him forever. --1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Boris Godunov
                        Scientific laws as we know them did not exist at the moment of the BB, as I just said. The BB gave rise to scientific laws as we know them.

                        You put the cart before the horse.
                        Not true. The BB wasn't a moment of creation. It just happened to be a cataclysmic even that for all practical purposes destroyed any information about the previous state of the universe.

                        If the BB occured in the first place as we understand it.

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                        • What about me MNG?
                          "I work in IT so I'd be buggered without a computer" - Words of wisdom from Provost Harrison
                          "You can be wrong AND jewish" - Wiglaf :love:

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Boris Godunov


                            Oh, which scientific law states that?

                            Scientific laws as we know them did not exist at the moment of the BB, as I just said. The BB gave rise to scientific laws as we know them.

                            You put the cart before the horse.
                            You don't know that and you don't have proof of that. You are just assuming things.
                            HAVE A DAY.
                            <--- Quote by Former U.S. President Theodore "Teddy" Roosevelt
                            "And there will be strange events in the skies--signs in the sun, moon, and stars. And down here on earth the nations will be in turmoil, perplexed by the roaring seas and strange tides. The courage of many people will falter because of the fearful fate they see coming upon the earth, because the stability of the very heavens will be broken up. Then everyone will see the Son of Man arrive on the clouds with power and great glory. So when all these things begin to happen, stand straight and look up, for your salvation is near!" --Luke 21:25-28
                            For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the call of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. First, all the Christians who have died will rise from their graves. Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and remain with him forever. --1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

                            Comment


                            • Kuci, prove it.
                              Boris
                              "I work in IT so I'd be buggered without a computer" - Words of wisdom from Provost Harrison
                              "You can be wrong AND jewish" - Wiglaf :love:

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Mr. Nice Guy
                                Agathon, you are my favorite atheist. You know why? Because I can't remember the last time I have ever seen you use expletives or get angry when making your arguments. And for that, I have a lot of respect for you.
                                Read: Aggie is a fellow Apple fanboy.

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