National ID Card + PATRIOTACT 2

[alva]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten

no

You've obviously never been married to a Canadian...

[Atahualpa]

I really don't see the problem with National ID cards. I already carry a state issued drivers license, so no big deal to carry a federally issued ID. I have to chuckle at how some people see this a violation of their rights since probably 99% of the people here already carry form of "legal identification".

Technology (for identification in that matter) is never a problem, the misuse is.

[Ming]

Originally posted by Atahualpa
Technology (for identification in that matter) is never a problem, the misuse is.

True enough... but there seems to be an opinion by some that a national ID system automatically means we are becoming a Facist state... And I'm laughing because most people already have some form of ID that has the potential to be misused as much as a federal ID could be.

[dannubis]

in the eu we have a standard id card. we can use that to travel to member states.

if we go outside the eu we need an international pass port. the US is very strict about foreigners having a state of the art pass port (bar code and fingerprints). keeping this in mind, i thought you guys already had one. it's very easy.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Ming


True enough... but there seems to be an opinion by some that a national ID system automatically means we are becoming a Facist state...

You don't draw the line at fascism. You draw it well before.

[Shogun Gunner]

As usual, the citizens demand many things, however, as with any solution, compromises must be made.

People demand security, they want law enforcement, low crime, they want ease of transactions.

BUT

People don't want to give any personal information, they don't want to be on any lists, they don't want the government to know anything about them, some are leniant on criminal punishment.

The fact is the government knows plenty about you already today. Even if you don't have a drivers license or a credit card. If you work, they know about you. To seize upon a national ID as being the begining of big brother is naive. This "situation" has existed for decades already. Think that your government doesn't spy on you? Our government, and every other government has been spying on individuals for entire history of mankind.

Properly managed, this push to a national ID could bring along many benefits.

[Dis]

Originally posted by Berzerker
Bush et al have little choice, they have to do crap like this because if they don't and we get attacked again, they will be blamed. Partisanship and political opportunism drives this nonsense, always has, and always will... "My opponent voted against 'the Patriot Act' and would make it easier for Al Qaeda to attack us"...

That's why government grows, everytime something bad happens there's a group of politicians blaming their opponents for not placing our security in federal hands. And when federal security is breached and something bad happens? More federal controls... That's why wars are so destructive of liberty, and "perpetual" wars, like the drug war and now terrorism, do the most damage.

I'm not angry with Bush et al for this legislation, I'm mad at the 2 parties for traveling the world creating enemies. I will never vote for these globalists and Ron Paul is about the only Republicrat I could vote for, of course, he's a libertarian.

We got into WWII and as a result we inherited a divided Europe and the Cold War, so naturally we started screwing around in the Middle East because of oil and Israel. Our mistake was assuming the role of "superpower" just like Rome and now the barbarians are at the gates...

as an example of large federal goverment. In Elko Nevada where they only recieve 4 flights a day. There are like 10 federal screeners!. Surely, one of the more dangerous airports in the country to be guarding...

[Dis]

Originally posted by MrFun



We could just do away with the separate Social Security card then, and simply have our Social Security number on the new National ID card.

Big

I never carry my SSN on my person!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

you realize that people can steal your idenitity if you lose your wallet, right?

[Dis]

Originally posted by Oerdin


I don't know about Germany but in the US it is illegal to employ someone who is not a citizen unless they have a work permit. Right now we have 13 million illegal aliens in this country nearly all of whom are working. A national ID card would make it much easier to detect people commiting this crime.

Also, right now people can game the system by getting driver's licences from several different states meaning they pay insurence based upon one driving record while putting tickets and accidents on a different driving record. One nationally issued card would end these frauds.

Lastly, there is a public safety concern. To travel on an airplane all you have to do is show your driver's licence. Several news programs have shown how easy it is to get multiple licences all in different names. What good is it to have a terrorist watch list if every criminal, terrorist or other wise, can so easily game the system? Clearly a national ID card is needed.

and national id cards can't be counterfeited?

[Dis]

Originally posted by Shogun Gunner
As usual, the citizens demand many things, however, as with any solution, compromises must be made.

People demand security, they want law enforcement, low crime, they want ease of transactions.

BUT

People don't want to give any personal information, they don't want to be on any lists, they don't want the government to know anything about them, some are leniant on criminal punishment.

The fact is the government knows plenty about you already today. Even if you don't have a drivers license or a credit card. If you work, they know about you. To seize upon a national ID as being the begining of big brother is naive. This "situation" has existed for decades already. Think that your government doesn't spy on you? Our government, and every other government has been spying on individuals for entire history of mankind.

Properly managed, this push to a national ID could bring along many benefits.

that doesn't mean we want to make it worse by giving them more spying power. The goverment doesn't know **** about me, aside from what's in my military and tax records. People over estimate the goverment's ability to keep track of people. We couldn't keep track of known terrorists for crying out loud!

[Whoha]

Originally posted by Oerdin
We certainly need a national ID card especially one which says if a person is a citizen or not.

A national ID card won't start the Fed all of the sudden enforcing immigration, and it isn't going to help at all against terrorism. the 9-11 guys had 60 drivers licenses.

[Shogun Gunner]

Originally posted by Dissident
People over estimate the goverment's ability to keep track of people. We couldn't keep track of known terrorists for crying out loud!

I would disagree with the first statement. We overestimate how many people the government can track. And I agree that this new functionality could be abused by our government, and quite frankly, we need futher public debate and independent reviews of programs and systems.

We couldn't keep track of known terrorists because the government lacks the proper tools and controls. These are being addressed today by DHS, DoD, Justice Departments, among others, but it will take time.

Biometric identifiers can be integrated into paper documents, like a passport or driver's licence and the plans are well underway. I wish I could go into the details of the programs I've worked on and the meetings I've been in, but I can tell you that the Federal security programs that I have personal knowledge of, each have a signficant effort clearly detailed in the program objectives to ensure information is used properly and controls are in place to detect, prevent and prosecute potential abusers of these new capabilities.

[Dis]

how does that quote go again?

he who trades privacy for security, shall recieve neither in the end. something like that.

we don't need national ID cards. All we need is guns. We can protect ourselves with guns. If the people in the WTC had guns, 9/11 would have never happened.

[Shogun Gunner]

Originally posted by Whoha


A national ID card won't start the Fed all of the sudden enforcing immigration, and it isn't going to help at all against terrorism. the 9-11 guys had 60 drivers licenses.

Yes it will help. When a national ID card is required to obtain a passport, and the passport has a biometric identifier, then the need for a state ID is not required.

Scott Hastings, CIO of DHS and in charge of the US Visit program just gave a talk this morning at the Fairview Park Marriott in Falls Church, VA. I attended, with several colleagues, and he provided specifics to how many criminals have been stopped by the new technology implementations and the new DoS visa controls in place today. Almost five hundred people were at this breakfast conference and a vibrant discussion followed the presentation.

Hastings also talked about privacy and what DHS is doing to ensure that American's are not hurt, but rather helped by these initiatives. Specifically, "trusted traveller" and ease of transportation and ease of transaction were discussed. One of the largest issues confronting DHS is getting other countries on board with similiar controls and mechanisms -- and there has been considerable success. Hastings specifically mentioned Japan, which has a strong tradition of associating the fingerprint biometric with criminality, has been in talks with DHS about fingerprint biometrics. Australia, UK, Germany, Canada and Mexico are all partners in this effort -- among other countries. With their cooperation, the illegal immigration issue can be better addressed.

[Shogun Gunner]

Originally posted by Dissident
how does that quote go again?

he who trades privacy for security, shall recieve neither in the end. something like that.

I would 100% agree with that. Without proper controls on privacy, the system won't work anyway. It requires "buy-in" with the consumer (read: citizen) and if the US population deems it to be too invasive without enough merit, the system will fail. We live in a democracy and can affect change.

we don't need national ID cards. All we need is guns. We can protect ourselves with guns. If the people in the WTC had guns, 9/11 would have never happened.

I will assume this is a poor joke. Afraid of a paper document and a government database, but not afraid of a lethal projectile potentially wielded by anyone and everyone without proper oversight, training or morals?