Are labor supply and freedom related?

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Of course, the biggest "class" distinction will be party members vs. non-party members, and/or former pigdogs vs. the rest.

-=Vel=-

Like I said the differences fade away.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Kidicious


Go on and believe this if you wish. I don't care to debate it.

So would you dispute that strong majority of people will most often act in their self-interest ( within certain perceived moral boundaries-- ie its in my interest to have more money but I don't mug the little old lady, even in circumstances where I know I will never be caught) ?

I more often see people subjugating their self-interest to others in smaller communities-- even without any idea that a favor will be returned

[Velociryx]

LOL Che! True, true!

And Kid....yes, I suppose they will. Especially with a little help, right?

Maybe make a few of those dissenters vanish? Ahhh, but we're focusing on the economics, so I shall go no farther.

-=Vel=-

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Flubber
People in general usually act in their own self interest regarless of the economic system. Some people act in the interest of others frequently in instances where it does not harm their own self interest. A smaller number of people will act in the interest of others even when it is directly contrary to their self-interest ( ie giving away money anonomously, acts of herosim at risk to your own life)

I think all of these things are true regardless of economic system but can vary culturally or by size of community. I believe smaller groups will more often act communally or in the groups interest. As groups get larger, there is more of a disconnect between the person'r self interest and the group interest so when Kid talks about worldwide communism, I see a state so far away and so divorced from the average person's perception of their self-interest that getting as much from and giving as little to, the state will be common

I'm more community centered than you think. I just don't want communities to have to compete with each other to the extent that some communities will suffer.

[Velociryx]

Well and good! To be community oriented is a good thing.

I too, am community oriented, but here's the difference.

I believe that *I* know what is best for me, better than the community does.

Apparently, you do not.

If you wish to trust your fate to others, you feel free.

The problem is that communism decrees that it must be all-inclusive, which means that there's no room for dissenters like me (where "dissention" in this case, means not wanting to have the whole of my life dictated to me by "the community" (or more practically, by the power-elites OF the community)

-=Vel=-

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Flubber
So would you dispute that strong majority of people will most often act in their self-interest ( within certain perceived moral boundaries-- ie its in my interest to have more money but I don't mug the little old lady, even in circumstances where I know I will never be caught) ?

I more often see people subjugating their self-interest to others in smaller communities-- even without any idea that a favor will be returned

I think that now the majority of people behave in their self-interest primarily, but because they are rewarded for doing so, and punished for not doing so. I think that people want to work together for a common goal, but are prevented from doing so sometimes.

[Velociryx]

Why do you believe that the two are mutually exclusive? That is to say, why can it not be IN my best interest to help you? I can think of many specific instances where this is the case, and inside the framework of a capitalist society, I can think of many more.

-=Vel=-

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Velociryx
LOL Che! True, true!

And Kid....yes, I suppose they will. Especially with a little help, right?

I will or will not debate you for my own enjoyment or displeasure. If I don't find it pleasurable, you will have to make your own points without mine to contrast.

[Velociryx]

Ahhh, you know you luv me...

-=Vel=-

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Velociryx
The steel gauntlet days are gone.

You think so? Not in most of the world, and not even totally in the U.S. We may not live in a police state, but even in the 19th Century, we didn't. That doesn't mean the cops don't get medieval on strikers, that workers aren't killed by their bosses and live and die in inhumane conditions. I'm not going to say you're naive, cuz I know you aren't, but you're ignorant about the conditions some people in this contry labor under.

If they return, we'll fight them.

Then why aren't you? We could use your help, even if you aren't a commie. Most people in the labor movement aren't.

Utopic societies all have one thing in common. They look FANTASTIC on paper....

Describe the soiety Marx envisioned please.

Capitalism has raised the standard of living for more people, and more quickly than communism ever dreamt of.

This is historically inaccurate. The fastest period of growth in history was in the USSR from 1930 - 1940. Capitalism took hundreds of years and two of the worst wars in human history, and the threat of communist revolution to finally bring about a decent standard of living for a section of those who live under it. In the mean time, it left a wake of bloody, broken bodies rivaled only by the Black Death.

So far, about the only thing it has brought is death, and lots of it.

Again, factually incorrect. Even in brutish countries like China, it brought about a massive rise in the standard of living, and halted the cycle of famine that killed millions upon millions of Chinese every other year. Even with the twenty million who died in the Great Leap Forward, Communism in China still has a net positive of lives saved versus lives taken.

And yes, the bloody legacy and dictatorial nature of communism IS relevant to the discussion, because your "kinder, gentler" brand is a direct descendant, and in fact, is the ONLY form of communism the world has seen in practice.

You must face not only the opposition of a robust and thriving rival system, but the ghosts of your ancestors.

-=Vel=-

Not it's not relevent in a discussion of what Marx thought or his relevence to today's capitalism. It's something you always throw out in order to derail a discussion about the logic of Marxism. Whenever I start making sense and seeming reasonable, out comes "MURDERER!" I didn't start the discussion by saying, well capitalism has killed hundreds of millions of people, so it's obviously a completely immoral and totally bankrupt system. No system is morally clean. No system doesn't have oceans of blood on its hands.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Kidicious


Like I said the differences fade away.

I never know how to take these little flip comments. Since difference among people rarely fade, does this mean contemplation of the "solutions" that Vel hints at?

While I want to stick to the economics I am uncomfortable at any hint that personal freedoms would have to be severely constrained in the name of implementing an economic system

[Velociryx]

Che, I live in the South. Just up the road from you. This was the home of slave labor and sweat shop style mills.

I KNOW about poverty. I grew up poor. What I have, I built myself, and to this day, I live in one of the poorest states in the Union.

Wanna know what I don't see?

I don't see slave shacks. I don't see sweat shops. I don't see any evidence of the steel gauntlet, even in one of the poorest states in the union.

If it ain't true here, and we're at the bottom, it follows that it prolly aint' true elsewhere, where the grass is greener. Not to say that it doesn't exist at all, but to put it in its proper context.

As to why I'm not helping....Labor doesn't look like it needs help. If I feel the pinch, or if my friends and family do, I'll saddle up...till then, it's not my fight. Very distant to me.

Marxist society: You described it yourself, with two words...socialist utopia. MmmmHmmm. But it didn't translate from paper to the real world so well.

re: capitalism and wealth. I didn't say "fastest growth" I said "raised the standard of living for more people" - since we're comparing economic systems, and in order to keep it apples to apples, and since economic systems measure growth in money, lets count millionaires. Tell me, how many millionaires did communism create last year?

How many did capitalism create?

How many have each created in total?

re: communism and death: You're right...it also brought about the virtual enslavement of nearly a third of the earth's population....not that THAT point is much to brag about either, but yes, it is another of communism's accomplishments.

re: communism and the shadows of their forefathers - I'm sorry to say, Che, that the current system that is predominant in the world is pretty well entrenched. It will be difficult to convince people who are thriving in the capitalist societies of the world to make the switch, ESPECIALLY in light of the fact that the only forms of communism we have ever seen trotted out have been bloodfests.

If you want to convince us, you have to acknowledge this, and explain both how and why you are different.

I'd say that makes it particularly relevant.

Pivotal, even.

-=Vel=-

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Flubber
I never know how to take these little flip comments. Since difference among people rarely fade, does this mean contemplation of the "solutions" that Vel hints at?

No. You should never take Vel's version of my ideas as any worth considering as truth. That should be obvious. Just take my words literally in this case.

[Kontiki]

One thing that baffels me is that Kid (and other communists) seems to believe that your position in a modern capitalist society is cemented in place. That is, if you're a poor worker, you will always be a poor worker and that the same handful of greedy capitalist devils will always run everything and exploit everyone for their own advantage. The reality as most of us see it is that you may start off as a poor worker, but then you too can become a capitalist. If your a more altruistic, community oriented person as a poor worker, why wouldn't you remain so as a capitalist? When you start your own small business or whatnot, are you all of a sudden going to look at putting your employees into serf-like bondage?

[Velociryx]

Kid, my "version" of your ideas injects at least a tiny bit of reality into the system. In my "version" the people you put in charge act like people. In my "version," the economy behaves exactly as it would if implemented. Near-total paralysis, horrible inefficiency, and a burgeoning black market (not to mention the enslavement of every living being under the system).

If it offends your sensibilities, try a new ideology...

-=Vel=-