Rugby - Running Out of Titles

[finbar]

I can imagine the Wasps team meeting prior to the match.

Nose: "Okay, lads, that mongrel Havak who gives us such a hard time is counting on us to win. What are we going to do?

Team: (chorus) Throw the match!

[Havak]

They might do that to spite me - but the delicious thing is that if they win with a bonus point they go through - so they have to try their hardest, and I then have to hope they score just three tries in winning.

Realistically Biarritz have to be favourites to progress - which is a shame as too many French sides look set to go through and nobody wants that do they?

I have just started reading Sir Clive's modest autobio "Winning" (I was bought it for Xmas). Very early impressions (from the acknowledgments) is that everything we have conjectured about his ego and personality is spot on.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
They might do that to spite me - but the delicious thing is that if they win with a bonus point they go through - so they have to try their hardest, and I then have to hope they score just three tries in winning.

What's the bonus point prerequisite? Same as S12? Point for four tries, point for finishing within seven?

Realistically Biarritz have to be favourites to progress - which is a shame as too many French sides look set to go through and nobody wants that do they?

You mean the French International Club XVs?

I have just started reading Sir Clive's modest autobio "Winning" (I was bought it for Xmas). Very early impressions (from the acknowledgments) is that everything we have conjectured about his ego and personality is spot on.

No need for the parentheses reassuring that you didn't willingly put money in the d*ckhead's pocket. I might wait till it's remaindered in the specials bin for $0.25. In fact, frankly, I can probably do without it. I was given Peter Roebuck's autobiography for Christmas. And I'd willingly have bought it myself if I hadn't mentioned it to Mrs finbar as my preferred option for a present. Former Somerset captain, mortal enemy of I. Botham, caught up in an unfortunate "assault" matter after smacking boys' bottoms with a cricket bat, wonderful writer and especially on cricket. Fascinating individual. It's called "Sometimes I Forgot To Laugh". Terrific title, its appropriateness becomes clear through the book. Very well worth reading.

[Havak]

Yes the bonus points work the same as S12 (and more latterly the Premiership in England).

Biarritz are a remarkably French side. There are tourists but it’s not as noticeable as with Stade Francais, USAP or certain other sides mentioned in this thread from time to time – who sign Welshmen.

Cue barrage?

I’ll make a note of Roebucks book and keep my eye out. You must read Woodwards – it’s is a very good look inside his head - what other rugby coach would devote an early chapter to why he loved football and came to rugger via accident and a harsh anti-kissball boarding school?

Andy Robinson announced the 2005 England senior and Academy sides today. And by god he got it wrong IMHO. It’s negative and backward looking as far as I am concerned. I’m too angry to deconstruct it in detail right now but I will give this taster – Dawson back in and Deacon/Smith only in the Academy. Fortunately Ellis makes the senior squad so Dawson and Gomers are just marking time for me.

Smith in the Academy, Noon in the senior squad? Vyvyan in the senior squad, Forrester in the Academy? Borthwick in the senior squad, Deacon in the Academy. Utter Madness! There are some positives but I’ll save those for tomorrow.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
Yes the bonus points work the same as S12 (and more latterly the Premiership in England).

Biarritz are a remarkably French side. There are tourists but it’s not as noticeable as with Stade Francais, USAP or certain other sides mentioned in this thread from time to time – who sign Welshmen.

I've taken to calling that particular team Cardiff, and calling its #1 supporter, who posts here from time to time, Richard Burton.

Cue barrage?

You'll cop one. I won't.

I’ll make a note of Roebucks book and keep my eye out. You must read Woodwards – it’s is a very good look inside his head - what other rugby coach would devote an early chapter to why he loved football and came to rugger via accident and a harsh anti-kissball boarding school?

Presumably, when he takes up his s***** coaching career, he'll look for a team containing someone akin to J**** who will carry the team and the coach on his back and make them both look better than they really are.

Andy Robinson announced the 2005 England senior and Academy sides today. And by god he got it wrong IMHO. It’s negative and backward looking as far as I am concerned. I’m too angry to deconstruct it in detail right now but I will give this taster – Dawson back in and Deacon/Smith only in the Academy. Fortunately Ellis makes the senior squad so Dawson and Gomers are just marking time for me.

Smith in the Academy, Noon in the senior squad? Vyvyan in the senior squad, Forrester in the Academy? Borthwick in the senior squad, Deacon in the Academy. Utter Madness! There are some positives but I’ll save those for tomorrow.

I'll check it out. Eddie has announced a 45-strong preliminary Wallaby squad, 13 bigger than the usual. He's casting the net far and wide loking for depth. Absolutely no surprises in the backs, but some names in the forwards that are new to me.

BTW, what does Academy Squad actually mean? Like the Wallaby Train On squad? Sort of back ups?

And on a related matter. Did you ever see that BBC History of Rugby series? I was telling Tamerlin about it at one time. It covers the game's history in GB, France, New Zealand, South Africa and here. It was finally repeated late last week and I taped it. I'm sending the tape to Tamerlin. If you didn't see it, or want to see it again, he could forward it to you. Marvellous series. The story of Welsh rugby is particularly sad.

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by finbar
Hey Tamerlin. I was watching a documentary on the history of English. After William of Normandy conquered England, 10,000 French words flooded into the English language. Take them back!

I am afraid that they have so montrously distorted them by now that we would not have any use for what we would recover.

Sorry to be absent these days but I am so overworked (believe it or not) that I don't have much time to spend on Apolyton or on computer games.

I should have some time available again in February.

I have heard that the Biarritz Olympique played very well this week-end and that, for once, Dimitri Yachvili has been very good.

[Havak]

You'll cop one. I won't.

Only because I doubt Richard Burton will mean anything to him.

someone akin to J**** who will carry the team and the coach on his back and make them both look better than they really are.

I suspect he will have to.

BTW, what does Academy Squad actually mean? Like the Wallaby Train On squad? Sort of back ups?

Pretty much that – it tends to be younger players and they get additional coaching. But it is not unheard of for Academy lads to leapfrog seniors or for established seniors to be in it – so yes a backup pool. It gets more complicated when you realise that a three day camp is coming up and that a lot of the seniors named are injured, some are not going to the camp and yet some of the Academy lads are going. Think of it as a probationary squad – or purgatory?

I am really hoping Robinson is not stupid enough to field Henry Paul and Noon in the centres (France will be laughing all the way to the bank and maybe Wales too). He has to play Ollie Smith (probably with Noon initially) or I’m going to lose any lingering hope for his tenure. But then he is persisting with Borthwick too and I can only assume that is because he himself signed him to Bath all those year ago. He just is not up to international rugby.

The good news I suppose is that Brown has made the senior squad and Deacon is firmly in the Academy – I still think these two are England’s next RWC lock combination so I’d like to see him play them earlier rather than later.

Nice to see Forrester in the Academy too (Glaws back rower). He has the pace of Chris Jones but more nounce to go with it. You will note Jones remains in the setup even though he has not figured since the Kiwi’s made him look inept.

Skinner is also one to watch in the Academy as he is Back’s protégé. Been out since October due to shoulder surgery but just coming back for Tigers and certainly full of potential.

Anyway here is the full list (and it’s littered with players currently out injured – e.g. Corry and Wilko). The 43 in the first list are those attending training camp for the 6N.

Squad for Six Nations training:
Backs: Balshaw, Cohen, Cueto, Lewsey, Robinson, Simpson-Daniel, Voyce, Abbott, Noon, Paul, Smith, Tait, Tindall, Barkley, Hodgson, King, Wilkinson, Dawson, Ellis, Gomarsall.
Forwards: Chuter, Thompson, Titterrell, Rowntree, Sheridan, Stevens, Vickery, White, Borthwick, Brown, L Deacon, Grewcock, Kay, Shaw, Beattie, Corry, Forrester, Hazell, Jones, Moody, Vyvyan, J Worsley.

Elite player squad 2004-05
Senior squad

Abbott, Balshaw, Borthwick, A Brown, Chuter, Cohen, Corry, Cueto, Dawson, Ellis, Flatman, Gomarsall, Greening, Greenwood, Grewcock, Hazell, Hill, Hodgson, Kay, King, Lewsey, Moody, Noon, Paul, Robinson, Rowntree, Shaw, Simpson-Daniel, Thompson, Tindall, Titterrell, Vickery, Vyvyan, White, Wilkinson, J Worsley, M Worsley.

Senior national academy
Barkley, Beattie, Christophers, L Deacon, Forrester, C Jones, Palmer, Rees, Sheridan, Skinner, Smith, Stevens, Tait, Voyce.

Sevens squad
Dowson, Haughton, Monye, Roques, P Sanderson.

Did you ever see that BBC History of Rugby series?

I recall you mentioning it before. I have caught some of it but cannot recall if that was before or since you last mentioned it. I saw the history of the Welsh but all that sticks in the mind is that all their very early representative sides were in fact upper class Englishmen based in the province and that the program skirted around the huge problem of racism in selection and closed minds to the Professional era in Wales holding them back.

I seem to recall that the French history was most interesting –how long they had to wait for their first win and the way they used WWII to kill off League in the country – smart lads.

And for Tamerlin’s benefit Biarritz played a cracking 20 mins. We should still have stuffed them quite frankly. The Romanian he mentioned was bullied out the game by Ellis in the second half. Please, please put him in the Blue jersey for twickers! Even Dawson has nothing to fear from him.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Tamerlin




I am afraid that they have so montrously distorted them by now that we would not have any use for what we would recover.

At least they're now spelled properly! As in "gaol" instead of geôle!

Sorry to be absent these days but I am so overworked (believe it or not) that I don't have much time to spend on Apolyton or on computer games.

You're as bad as Havak when he disappers on this time-wasting thing called work. Something with which I am not familiar.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak


Only because I doubt Richard Burton will mean anything to him.

He'll wonder why I'm calling him Elizabeth Taylor's husband.

I am really hoping Robinson is not stupid enough to field Henry Paul and Noon in the centres (France will be laughing all the way to the bank and maybe Wales too).

I can't believe Paul is still there!

And what's the difference between the Squad for 6 Nations training and the Elite squad for 2004/5?

I saw the history of the Welsh but all that sticks in the mind is that all their very early representative sides were in fact upper class Englishmen based in the province and that the program skirted around the huge problem of racism in selection and closed minds to the Professional era in Wales holding them back.

Yes, the Welsh started with mainly the Englishmen. The interesting thing, though, was that when the miners, et al, became involved, the class differential that existed in England didn't feature so much in Wales. National pride seemed to override it. And when the depression hit, and the work disappeared, so did Welsh rugby for a long time. I recall from the episode that something like three full sets of capped XVs went elsewhere in search of work.

I seem to recall that the French history was most interesting –how long they had to wait for their first win and the way they used WWII to kill off League in the country – smart lads.

The French is actually the most interesting episode of the lot for the social and political context.

[Havak]

You're as bad as Havak when he disappers on this time-wasting thing called work. Something with which I am not familiar.

Never had to write through the night to meet a submission deadline then?

And what's the difference between the Squad for 6 Nations training and the Elite squad for 2004/5?

I have been thinking on that one but I honestly don’t know – other than that the latter is slightly larger which makes me think the 6N might set a lower limit on squad numbers than England wanted for their 2005 annual squad?

I recall from the episode that something like three full sets of capped XVs went elsewhere in search of work.

And every single one of them couldn’t get a game with the big English clubs when they did because they were not the ‘right sorts’?

The French is actually the most interesting episode of the lot for the social and political context.

And for proving that they have always been a side that are world beaters Saturday and world chasers Monday.

You should read Clive’s book. I’m not changing my views of the man significantly but some things are thought provoking and I would like your views on Chapter 7 (Antipodean Adventure). It may surprise you that he is full of praise for Aussie rugby and individuals – and an admirer of Rod McQueen in particular. That gets balanced with the fact that he had a day job with Xerox and expresses his consternation with Aussie office culture – where Sales teams didn’t give a stuff that they were not selling for example - and took their birthdays off without taking leave to cover the day. And keep you eyes out for the part where he complains about his unit on Manly beach because the waves kept him awake – he actually pokes fun at himself over that.

You may also enjoy the shambolic insight into the RFU as it turned Professional.

You may also have read that he carries the poem An Indispensable Man in his wallet. I was interested to learn that he does so because it was read at the funeral of his second coach at Tigers and that he felt it was the perfect guideline for life. It doesn’t match what one had surmised about his ego I have to say.

“Sometimes, when you're feeling important,
Sometimes, when your ego's in bloom,
Sometimes, when you take it for granted
You're the best qualified in the room.

Sometimes, when you feel that your going
Would leave an unfilled hole,
Just follow this simple instruction,
and see how it humbles your soul:

Take a bucket and fill it with water,
Put your hand in it up to the wrist,
Pull it out and the hole that's remaining
Is a measure of how you'll be missed.

You may splash all you please when you enter,
You can stir up the water galore,
But stop, and you'll find in a minute
That it looks quite the same as before.

The moral of this quaint example
Is to do just the best that you can;
Be proud of yourself, but remember,
There is no indispensable man.”

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak


Never had to write through the night to meet a submission deadline then?

Never again if I can help it. I'm trying to consider myself semi-retired. Doing only what I feel like doing.

I have been thinking on that one but I honestly don’t know – other than that the latter is slightly larger which makes me think the 6N might set a lower limit on squad numbers than England wanted for their 2005 annual squad?

That was all I could think of.

And every single one of them couldn’t get a game with the big English clubs when they did because they were not the ‘right sorts’?

Wouldn't be surprised. Hopefully they found work, though, which was the only reason they left Wales.

You should read Clive’s book. I’m not changing my views of the man significantly but some things are thought provoking and I would like your views on Chapter 7 (Antipodean Adventure). It may surprise you that he is full of praise for Aussie rugby and individuals – and an admirer of Rod McQueen in particular.

An admirer of McQueen to the extent that he set up the England structure exactly along the lines that McQueen set up the Wallabies albeit with twice as many back-up staff. McQueen applied business principles. Clive basically copied them.

That gets balanced with the fact that he had a day job with Xerox and expresses his consternation with Aussie office culture – where Sales teams didn’t give a stuff that they were not selling for example - and took their birthdays off without taking leave to cover the day.

What a ****er.

And keep you eyes out for the part where he complains about his unit on Manly beach because the waves kept him awake – he actually pokes fun at himself over that.

I'm with him on that one. Waves drive me insane at night. Mrs finbar loves them. If we ever retire to the beach, she can have a bedroom nearest the waves, I'll have one at the opposite end of the house.

You may also have read that he carries the poem An Indispensable Man in his wallet.

The poem is a nice sentiment. Pity he doesn't live by it.

[Havak]

Never again if I can help it. I'm trying to consider myself semi-retired. Doing only what I feel like doing.

More power to your elbow I say. I’d love to do the same myself. I must get around to writing that novel that must be hiding somewhere within me.

Hopefully they found work, though, which was the only reason they left Wales.

Ah yes the ‘good old days’. I hope they did but if you are talking the twenties and thirties we are talking no welfare state and men having to beg rich gits for a days work. My own grandfather was once asked at a foundry if he had any pictures on his wall at home – and when he replied yes he did have one was told to go and sell it before coming back another day. That kind of petty vindictiveness and smug superiority was common – and is yet another reason why I detest Conservative thinking and the slavish pursuit of individual wealth.

Sorry – went off on one again.

McQueen applied business principles. Clive basically copied them.

Perhaps so – although he certainly doesn’t acknowledge it. But he does seem to have had some innovative approaches of his own. And god help me but I actually admire him for the stand he took at London Irish in 96 (weird motions at an AGM) – again I would commend you to read the book (there must be thousands of copies outside the Sydney incinerators?).

What a ****er.

Again he learnt from it – understand a culture before you try to manage within it. Which is why he never ever upset Australians again of course.

Office culture is different here – a don’t ‘give a stuff attitude’ will get you dismissed even in low pressure jobs. And you take leave for your birthdays.

If we ever retire to the beach, she can have a bedroom nearest the waves, I'll have one at the opposite end of the house.

But on the bright side Northern Italy has beaches that have very gentle tides in comparison to NSW.

Tigers are panicking about the game in Italy – if the pitch freezes (very likely at this time of year) and the game is called off they only get four points. I think Wells is missing the point – had we beaten BO last weekend it wouldn’t matter. You don’t worry about the stable door when the horse is five miles away.

Did you note this week by the way that Clive is still leaving the door open for Martin to join the Lions tour? Ever hopeful…

In the other game of note England made a good start in Joburg but lost two late wickets on day one (including Thorpey for a duck). I cannot wait to see Strauss against the Aussies as I am keen to see how good he actually is.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
That kind of petty vindictiveness and smug superiority was common – and is yet another reason why I detest Conservative thinking and the slavish pursuit of individual wealth.

Sorry – went off on one again.

Feel free. Music to my ears.

Perhaps so – although he certainly doesn’t acknowledge it.

He followed McQueen's model in that he set up a highly structured organisation. The coach is effectively CEO, with various not-quite-but-almost-autonomous departments under him. And progress or otherwise - improvement or otherwise - is charted and analysed. I remember reading the detail of the system once but that's about all I remember. It's quite common now but McQueen was the first to bring it to rugby.

again I would commend you to read the book (there must be thousands of copies outside the Sydney incinerators?).

I'll have a look for it. I'll need something to put me to sleep on the long flight to Italy.

Office culture is different here – a don’t ‘give a stuff attitude’ will get you dismissed even in low pressure jobs. And you take leave for your birthdays.

Ah, but there's often a difference between the perceived "don't give a stuff" attitude and the reality. It's the Australian way to be seen not to be giving a stuff.

Tigers are panicking about the game in Italy – if the pitch freezes (very likely at this time of year) and the game is called off they only get four points. I think Wells is missing the point – had we beaten BO last weekend it wouldn’t matter. You don’t worry about the stable door when the horse is five miles away.

Anyway, you romped home. But Wasps lost. So does that stuff you? Or does your win keep you live?

Did you note this week by the way that Clive is still leaving the door open for Martin to join the Lions tour? Ever hopeful…

He must now be losing hope that Wilkinson, whose leg injury seems to be real for once, will make the tour.

In the other game of note England made a good start in Joburg but lost two late wickets on day one (including Thorpey for a duck). I cannot wait to see Strauss against the Aussies as I am keen to see how good he actually is.

Me too. I've seen a bit of him now. Solid, simple technique, which is useful. His feet don't always work as they should. We'll see.

[LDiCesare]

Leicester are dong for the Hcup now.
Current results:
Pool 1 Winners - Biarritz Olympique 22 points (20 tries)
Pool 2 Winners - Leinster 26 points (33 tries)
Pool 3 Winners - Toulouse 24 points (21 tries); Runners-up - Northampton Saints 21 points (11 tries)
Pool 4 Winners - Munster - 22 points (12 tries)
Pool 5 Winners - To Be Decided Sunday
Pool 6 Winners - To Be Decided Sunday
I think the Saints are the best second, and the second best will be qualified but Leicester seems out anyway.
Pool 5 should get Newcastle and Perpignan or the Welsh Dragons should they beat Newcastle.
Pool 6 should get the Stade Francais unless Gloucester manages to score 4 tries, and the French no more than 2, and win by more than 7 points if I've understood everything. (Disclaimer: I play hooker).

For me there's a possibility that I'll be spending one week end in Toulouse around the 15th of may to play rugby there as Airbus is preparing a tournament down there and we're invited.

[finbar]

Leicester did scrape through. They're up against Leinster. People who spell badly might have trouble working out who to support.

You're playing in Toulouse, LDiCesares? If you need a replacement hooker to let you express your skills at #10, I'm volunteering Tamerlin's services.