Rugby - Running Out of Titles

[Havak]

You should have stayed up – the second half will live in infamy.

I have never personally seen a worse performance from a French side at Twickenham – they were awful - and yet they left with the points. England missed seven kicks at the posts and to say it cost us dear is pretty obvious. France turned up with a kicking game plan and really offered nothing in terms of threat all game. And won. I’m still in shock.

Where does that leave England? In deep trouble I think. No on field leadership and a coach totally out of his depth – his substitutions had to be seen to be believed and lardy once again threw half his ball to the oppo and yet played the whole game – does he have compromising photos of Andy Robinson or something?

And I have to listen to our coach saying there were ‘plenty of positives’.

Two things need to happen straight away – first the skippers armband goes to either Corry or Kay – the only two stand out forwards today. Second, and most important, Andy Robinsons immediate resignation – the man is way out of his depth. Hell even ‘Gob’ Andrew looks a better option right now.

Plenty of players not pulling their weight too – I would lose all the Bath players but Barkeley and all the Sale players except Robinson. And put Tigers and Wasps in their place.

The irony is the A fixture was superb – and one Ollie Smith showed why he should be in the first team with one try and two assists to his name.

Where now Mr Robinson? Dole queue I hope!

[finbar]

I finished up watching the rest of the match! I sulked off to bed at around 2.50am after posting, woke up Mrs finbar getting into bed and copped a torrent of abuse for being so inconsiderate. That put me in an even worse mood. I'd been watching the match on the downstairs TV, so I got into bed, turned on the TV (we have cable outlets upstairs and downstairs), put on my headphones, and watched the second half.

I don't think I've ever seen a match between two so-called top level teams like it. It boiled down to whomever played a bit less badly would win. I've never seen a more impotent French performance. The fullback should be sent to the guillotine for being hopeless and the ref should have been carded for not carding him for deliberately throwing the ball out of play. Why was Michalak on the bench for so long? To their credit, in the second half, the French found a modicum of composure and decided to control the ball and let England stuff it up. Which they obligingly did.

I think your post pretty much sums it up. Regardless of the missed kicks, the French were playing so badly in the first half that England should have run in half a dozen tries. In fact, I have to say, had England kicked straight, resulting in a comfortable scoreboard victory, it wouldn't have been a good result for English rugby. It would have papered over the problems that you have nailed. I've watched the coach's post-match interview. He's totally deluding himself. His implication that France won the game the easy way and somehow cheated England out of the game - by kicking penalties from the 10m line - is outrageous. England were as terrible in the second half as France were in the first half.

I don't know who the Sale and Bath players are, so I don't know who you're talking about sacking, but I would certainly make Corry the captain. He had an outstanding game and seems to be one of the few on the field who have a clue what they're doing. I didn't see the Ireland game, but they did what they did without their very handy centres, and if they're back against England, I don't fancy your chances. Sadly, perhaps your best chance of getting rid of the coach is to hope for more losses.

[ravagon]

Looks as though I missed an eventful couple of rounds in the 6N.
Anyone betting on the outcome of England-Ireland?


A little tiff between the Saracens coach and a Saints team doc during their game late last week seems to have led to the Saints coach throwing a tantrum at the post match press conference when he blew up at the ref.
The words "performance in the first half was a disgrace" were used. I don't think there's much else to say about possible disciplinary action coming after a crack like that ...

Apparently the incident stemmed from late in the 1st half when the doc suggested that an attempt to take a Saracens player off to the blood bin should be disallowed given that the player wasn't bleeding. Quite unreasonable really.
The Saints coach then shoved the doc, "I was getting him out of our technical area - I moved him out of the way," in true Jonno-esqe fashion.

I have to wonder just how many more incidents will go by before the RFU really starts cracking down a bit. Otherwise, in the professional age with more at stake than was the case a few years ago, it'll keep getting worse. I'd rather not see discipline off the field turn into something reminiscent of the American baseball league.

Originally posted by finbar

But the Welsh had support from, um, unexpected quarters. You might fancy making such a bet yourself if it guarantees a win this weekend! And you, too, Tamerlin!

Another Welshman who never made it out of the shallow end of the gene pool.
Well, at least it's nice to see that natural selection is still in force ...

I think I can help you all understand Robinson's selection of a hooker. His choice 1 can't throw. Hid choice 2 can't play. On that everyone agrees.
So, the only sensible conclusion is that Andy Robinson is trying to pump up the confidence of all hookers in the world that they are world class hookers. I know I can throw as badly as Thompson for instance, so this is a great relief when I miss a throw in a match. Robinson is lifting the spirits of all hookers in the world thanks to his selection. A big to him for that reason. I almost feel like I can play good rugby when I see his choice players.

Lordy, how I have missed this thread ...

[finbar]

Lash out on Foxtel, you cheapskate. Enjoy Ireland embarrassing England 179,000 - nil in a fortnight.

[ravagon]

Heh. This is WA. It took me almost a month to get the phone sorted out after I moved house. [A very pleasant month incidentally in which Ops couldn't call me about any problems. ]
Order Foxtel now and I might have it in time for the WC next year.

[Havak]

Um Ravagon - the Saints coach has been called to appear before the RFU diciplinary committee for those comments.

Strangely England has a fairly good record for this sort of thing - NZ on the other hand let Steve Walsh get into fisticuffs in the tunnel and do an Arsene Wenger about it ("we didn't see it").

[ravagon]

I did realise this. The Saracens coach, however, who precipitated the whole thing seems to have gotten off without a hitch.

Re: Steve Walsh - IIRC there was a little provocation on the other side too.

[Havak]

Okay I’ve be giving it some thought after watching the A fixture again (where the better side actually won – shock horror) and there are plenty of players there I would promote right away. Chuter, Smith, Balshaw and anyone/everyone from Palmer, Brown and Deacon. And crucially Andy Goode too I think – Hodgson is perhaps the greater talent – but Goode doesn’t crumble under pressure the way Charlie consistently does.

Some players in the first XXII need to be ditched completely. Thompson obviously. Hodgson – he has now proved he hasn’t got it at this level. Grewcock and Worseley – anonymous throughout the game. Dawson – why oh why was he the only substitution???

In fact that is the main thing that convinces me the coach does not know what he is doing – it’s the third game in a row he has hardly used his bench. And the third game in a row that world plus dog could see Thompson needed pulling off – but not the coach.

And post game I get into an argument with a Robinson apologist – it is apparently too early for me to be calling for his resignation? Naturally I pointed out I would get the resignation after Dublin if not today. A thumping at the hands of Ireland and a 20 year record of four straight losses makes the coaches position quite untenable.

Ireland did a good job against Scotland – absorbing plenty of early pressure and then gaining control up front as the Scots tired. That allowed them to free that backline nicely and I have to say I fear for us in a fortnight.

Good news though – Wilko may be fit for the wooden spoon avoidance fixtures with Italy and Scotland. Losing either of those at HQ is a disaster – but you can see it happening.

[Havak]

For interest this is the journey of self denial Robinson went on in his post match TV interview:

"We went out to play and played some very good rugby and what have France done? They won the game from kicking penalties from our 10m line. It's very frustrating. The lads showed a lot of ambition in the first half, they went out to sustain it in the second but couldn't build on it.

We took the ball into contact, and you know when you do that it is a lottery whether the referee is going to give the penalty to your side or the other side.

We have lost a game we should have won. There is a fine line between winning and losing, and for the second week we've been on the wrong side of that line and it hurts."

Okay this is bad form. France certainly were very poor indeed - and they certainly did not deserve to win - but the coach laying into them for the unambitious way they played immediately afterwards is just not on. It's not the spirit of the game.

[Havak]

If there was provocation why was Walsh the one more harshly penalised by the IRB?

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
Okay I’ve be giving it some thought after watching the A fixture again (where the better side actually won – shock horror) and there are plenty of players there I would promote right away. Chuter, Smith, Balshaw and anyone/everyone from Palmer, Brown and Deacon. And crucially Andy Goode too I think – Hodgson is perhaps the greater talent – but Goode doesn’t crumble under pressure the way Charlie consistently does.

I've only seen Goode a couple of times in the replays of HC matches. He looked a competent 5/8 who certainly knows how to kick a goal. Presumably everyone's just waiting around for Wilkinson to reappear. But what if he re-injures himself? Who are the other possible 5/8s?

I think what's happening now is that the average talents are being exposed. Those who were playing circa 2003 were being carried along by the strengths of the team - J****, Back, et al. They've gone, now the average talents are having to step up.

Dawson – why oh why was he the only substitution???

You missed Cohen replacing Cueto? And fumbling his first touch?

In fact that is the main thing that convinces me the coach does not know what he is doing – it’s the third game in a row he has hardly used his bench. And the third game in a row that world plus dog could see Thompson needed pulling off – but not the coach.

And post game I get into an argument with a Robinson apologist – it is apparently too early for me to be calling for his resignation? Naturally I pointed out I would get the resignation after Dublin if not today. A thumping at the hands of Ireland and a 20 year record of four straight losses makes the coaches position quite untenable.

I don't think he has what it takes, but I can't imagine the authorities shafting him so soon. It would be admitting a huge mistake.

Good news though – Wilko may be fit for the wooden spoon avoidance fixtures with Italy and Scotland. Losing either of those at HQ is a disaster – but you can see it happening.

If it sinks the coach, grin and bear it.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
Okay this is bad form. France certainly were very poor indeed - and they certainly did not deserve to win - but the coach laying into them for the unambitious way they played immediately afterwards is just not on. It's not the spirit of the game.

No, it's not. As I said, it was outrageous. But what he also did was completely overlook his team's abysmal effort in the second half. A coach is allowed to criticise his team in public if done the right way. I've seen none of that from him. All I've seen is "we keep losing close matches and it's heartbreaking".

But I have a question. If France didn't deserve to win, who did?

[Havak]

Paddy O'Brien?

Or maybe, just maybe the side that scored two decent enough tries rather than the team that could still be playing now and not have scored any yet?

Just a thought.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
Paddy O'Brien?

He did a reasonable job in the face of full-scale player incompetence, I thought.

Or maybe, just maybe the side that scored two decent enough tries rather than the team that could still be playing now and not have scored any yet?

You mean the team that scored two decent-enough tries in the first half and should have scored more against inept opposition, but who played like busted a*seholes for the entire second half and rarely looked like making it into the oppo's 22? Except for the time they did, when Noon put Dominici into touch in goal, and England had a lineout 5m from the line and completely stuffed it up? If the match had ended at half-time, I would heartily agree with your analysis.

[Havak]

Yes thats the 'World class' side I was talking about.

I am sorely tempted to send a barn door to Northampton so Lardy can practice trying to hit it. I might have to give him a tank for him to stand any chance though.

At least we get a fortnights grace before Ireland rip us apart - and France get three weeks before the same happens to them (Wales in Paris for them first and I'm shocked to hear myself say I think the taffs might just be favourites there!).

Meanwhile next weekend Tigers host Newcastle and I hate to say it but I think the visiting coach has a good chance of being England coach by March. What is the world coming to when I think Rob Andrew is the lesser of two evils?

Come back Sir Quitter, all is forgiven.