Rugby - Running Out of Titles

[Havak]

I found this comment from another unhappy fan - I have to sya I think he nauils almost everything spot on.

Well I think a lot of the blame has to go to the Robinson’s for their lame tactics (or lack of them) when things started to go wrong.
To start with the ball at the ruck was slow – as it was stated by all commentators the French were lying all over the ball (probably after watching Wales get away it successfully last week – not a whinge just a comment on a part of play that everyone does if they can get away with it) but no-one put “feet on bodies” to clear them out. If you pick a side to play with width you need to quick clean ball to play with – why didn’t anyone (Captain or coach) point this out as an area to focus on. Worsley had another anonymous game and we may have to re-think the back row and its approach.

JR kept pointing to the posts when he knew Hodgson didn’t believe he could get the points – why not go for the touch near their line and start the maul (used successfully yesterday before the madness set in) – see line out below.

Line-out – perhaps it is me but I don’t see many other countries going for this overly complicated ‘come-dancing’ style of line-outs it seems like there are a dozen players running back and forwards like headless chickens before the throw come in – no wonder a limited thrower like Thomson has trouble hitting his man. I went to the England ‘A’ game on Friday and saw a simple well executed line drill work well with out all these shenanigans – the best line-out (Ireland) doesn’t see the need to do that so why don’t we learn from our betters.

Replacements – I’m not sure what replacing one big strong wing for another does when the problems were blatantly of the nature above. If you have a third kicker on the bench why not use him – if he is not good enough t play then he shouldn’t have been picked in the first place. Rowntree was flagging at the end and should have been replaced by Sheridan who would have been not only fresh legs but dangerous in both the tight and loose. This lack of vision was highlighted in the scrum in the dying minutes – Laporte saw his scrum going backward and changed his personnel thus shoring up this potential defect. Unfortunately Robinson appears to be incapable of either noticing this or acting on it.

Leadership – JR is normally a great a player but appears to have been worked out by opposition. Whether this is affecting his confidence I don’t know but he certainly not inspiring and or leading anyone in the team at the moment. I think that the captaincy should be passed over to someone in the pack – I would go for Corry as he is at least an inspiration to the rest of them at the moment and is used to a ‘no nonsense’ approach at Leicester.

Post match comments – Robinson talked about “great commitment” and “couldn’t ask anymore of his players” and other such nonsense. If you watch Football from mid-season onwards this is the exact banter from managers facing (and usually achieving) relegation. Robinson needs to be (and seen to be) honest and not play ‘kid-gloves’ with players who have not played well or have shirked responsibility.

If we play like that (again) against Ireland we will be on the backend of a 40-50 point drubbing.

[finbar]

Mmmmm. I couldn't have put any of it better myself.

[ravagon]

Personally I can't really see England losing heavily to the Irish as both of their matches to date have been fairly close regardless of their evident poor showing
(Is this going to be at Twickers or in Dublin btw?).
The real danger is probably in a narrow win alongside another poor performance, perhaps in combination with a similarly lacklustre outing from the Irish.
Combine that scenario with the upcoming games against Italy/Scotland (which shouldn't really trouble even an ailing English side too much) and it could lead to the 'she's coming right' optimism that seems to pervade so many diehards these days - ie: nothing further happens to fix any of the existing problems.
I have to wonder though whether or not it wasn't the pretty abysymal goal kicking on the English side that drew them all down so much.
It must've been rather difficult to see the French pulling back a sizable lead with a single aspect of their game while seeing that same aspect of English rugby going down the toilet, so to speak ...


I don't really want to join the bash England regardless crowd but I found what I considered a rather amusing post, from a Kiwi (surprise surprise? ) in England.

Was there not a touch of irony in seeing England score the tries and yet lose the game to a team kicking points? It wasn't pretty and it was very 'un-frenchmen like' but the smirk on my face is still there and the ironic nature of it is hilarious.

As a Kiwi, I still like to see attractive running rugby though and thought Josh Lewsey did his best to do that. He scored an excellent try so hats off to him and to those involved in the build up.

A word on Bryan Moore and his ridiculous "if he'd been wearing a black shirt he would have got away with that" comment. Mate, if you and the rest of England wonder why NZ thinks the England rugby team is arrogant, then wonder no more. You're only adding fuel to the fire. Grow up and act like the professional and impartial commentator you are meant to be.

Besides, as a NZ journalist pointed out in reference to that comment "neither commentator mentioned the fact that if a team wearing black had been playing in that game, they would have been up by 40 points!!"

[finbar]

Originally posted by ravagon
Personally I can't really see England losing heavily to the Irish as both of their matches to date have been fairly close regardless of their evident poor showing
(Is this going to be at Twickers or in Dublin btw?).

Dublin. England's problem is that Ireland apparently played very well against Scotland without O'Driscoll and Darcy in the centres. They will be back against England. And all of Ireland will be keener than ever - if that's possible - to continue England's misery. England's two close losses have been to teams vastly less talented than Ireland. Wales have only one thing going for them - a running game built around the little winger. When they couldn't run, they were stuffed. And England couldn't beat them. You would not believe how inept the French were in the first half on the weekend. It was minnows stuff. England scored two tries in the first half and led comfortably at halftime. All the French did in the second half was decide to control the ball. Which they did. And England struggled to make it into the French 22 for most of the half. The French weren't playing well, just controlling the ball, playing a version of keepings-off. And England couldn't counter them. Unless there's a vast turnaround in England's performance - players and coach - Ireland, unless they choke, should handle them comfortably.

I have to wonder though whether or not it wasn't the pretty abysymal goal kicking on the English side that drew them all down so much.
It must've been rather difficult to see the French pulling back a sizable lead with a single aspect of their game while seeing that same aspect of English rugby going down the toilet, so to speak ...

Their crap goalkicking is, IMHO, the least of England's problems. It's a matter of selecting someone who can kick consistently. A win against France would have papered over the problems, a happenstance you referred to elsewhere in the post. If the loss against France results in some tough questions being asked in the England camp, and some tough decisions taken, then, in the long run, the loss was a good thing. Whether any of that happens remains to be seen.

[ravagon]

Umm. Hadn't thought about Ireland having injuries too. O'Driscoll in particular. They haven't had rave reviews either from what I've read of this years 6N but that might've had something to do with it. Even I can see how having O'D back might perk the Paddy's up a bit. And in Dublin too ... ?
Puts things in a slightly different light.

When some of the English fans are hoping to lose just to convince the rest of the rugby public that they need changes ... well ...
I guess the real question is whether they'd need losses to the usual wooden spooners too, before they begin changing things around a bit.


I see that the French have a few more players back from injury for the matchup vs the Welsh. Rougerie, Jauzion and Harinordoquy (had to cut and past this one ).
They're still keeping Delaigue however, with Michalak presumably still on the bench - unless they see some sense in the next few days.


[Edit: Hmmm. Next 6N round isn't for a couple of weeks. What gives? Lazy SoB's. Just when it was getting interesting.]

[Tamerlin]

[Havak]

The real danger is probably in a narrow win alongside another poor performance, perhaps in combination with a similarly lacklustre outing from the Irish.

They won’t win in Dublin unless Eddie O’Sullivan gets the Irish headology completely wrong in the build up. He shouldn’t – he is too good for that.

The real danger from my point of view is a thorough 50 point drubbing followed by Andy Robinson sticking his head in the sand again and saying he saw ‘plenty of positives’. I’ve made my mind up on the man already – I never thought his poor record as a club coach qualified him for the England job and now he has proved it for me. He is an almost competent assistant coach and not much more.

Nigel Melville and Rob Andrew are probably making sure their phones are fully charged for after Dublin. If only Deano was in the frame – no one would lack for effort at least if ‘Warren’ was behind them.

It is also by no means certain that they will beat Italy and Scotland. They should of course – but I have not seen an England side so bereft of direction on a field since before Will Carlings time (circa 1988). They can squander winning positions so if both these sides put the pressure on – or simply hold onto the ball as France did – England could well lose both.

What kind of buy rates will the RFU then see for the Aus-NZ-Samoa massacres in the autumn?

Radical action is needed I think – starting with a new coach and a skipper close enough to whack forwards around the head when they give penalties away.

what I considered a rather amusing post, from a Kiwi (surprise surprise? ) in England.

It amazes me how so many of your countrymen can live here and still not grow a sense of humour.

Brian Moore’s comment about the Black shirt was only in jest – and even then Butler tried to defuse it knowing how touchy Kiwis would be about it. Perhaps it was ill conceived but it was on BBC1 for domestic consumption so tough tumshy on ex pat Kiwis who might have been offended as it was indeed rather funny - I have also heard far worse from antipodeans whilst watching S12 games. Sarcasm and irony passed your commentator by then Ravagon? Certainly spelling Brian’s name correctly was beyond him. Yes and I know that type of pedantry annoys Kiwis too.

I loved the closing quote from that journalist too – I guess the one heavy win over France is causing a little over confidence then?

Just one question for you – as Moore played his last game for England in 1995 why is that fan using something he said as evidence that the England Rugby TEAM is arrogant? Pitbull was considered a verbal and physical loose canon as a player rather like Campo – but to judge the team now based on anything he says is unfair and actually rather strange to be honest. It’s like hating Gregan’s Aussie side for something Campo said yesterday?

If the loss against France results in some tough questions being asked in the England camp, and some tough decisions taken, then, in the long run, the loss was a good thing

Um – you did hear what Andy Robinson said post game Finbar? I wonder if that kind of denial can be overcome to be honest?

Certainly all the comments I have seen have been about squad solidarity around the kickers and the skipper saying how close they are to being the real article – and yes the latter made me choke on my morning coffee yesterday.

Let me see if I can quote an example from veteran Tigers forward ‘Wiggy’ Rowntree, a player I have a lot of time for in fact:

I have had enough of hearing about the Martin Johnson era - as much as I love him - and the World Cup era. What else can we do apart from kick forward and be positive? Why should we panic?

I am extremely disappointed with losing to France but I am going to sulk for a bit and then move on. Does everyone expect us to give and go home? There is enough talent in this squad to regroup.

Last week against Wales was embarrassing, we did not play. But against France we did, so we have to keep looking at the positives. Ireland looked very efficient against Scotland. They closed out the game very well. I was fortunate enough to play there in 2003 and if ever there is a game which is going to give you tingles up the spine, this is it.

We will be playing against a quality side. They have one hell of a backline as well as efficient forwards but there is no pressure on us, all the pressure is on them”

So let me paraphrase that then: “Problem, what problem?”

I see Owen has signed for Newcastle after all Finbar – does he think it is in Ireland by any chance?

[ravagon]

Originally posted by Havak

It is also by no means certain that they will beat Italy and Scotland. They should of course – but I have not seen an England side so bereft of direction on a field since before Will Carlings time (circa 1988). They can squander winning positions so if both these sides put the pressure on – or simply hold onto the ball as France did – England could well lose both.

Crikey. I didn't really think you'd take that seriously.

It amazes me how so many of your countrymen can live here and still not grow a sense of humour.

Brian Moore’s comment about the Black shirt was only in jest – and even then Butler tried to defuse it knowing how touchy Kiwis would be about it. Perhaps it was ill conceived but it was on BBC1 for domestic consumption so tough tumshy on ex pat Kiwis who might have been offended as it was indeed rather funny - I have also heard far worse from antipodeans whilst watching S12 games. Sarcasm and irony passed your commentator by then Ravagon? Certainly spelling Brian’s name correctly was beyond him. Yes and I know that type of pedantry annoys Kiwis too.

I loved the closing quote from that journalist too – I guess the one heavy win over France is causing a little over confidence then?

It amazes me how so many of my countrymen can live in England yet not impart their sense of humour to the English. Anyone'd think you Brits are stubborn or something.

I too thought it rather funny, as I'm sure did the journalist who quipped back, and probably the Kiwi who posted about it. They didn't have 's in the transcripts so I wouldn't know.

Overconfidence? Well, perhaps but it just wouldn't have been as funny if he'd said 10-20 points now would it? See above comments about Kiwi's not passing on their better-developed senses of humour.

Just one question for you – as Moore played his last game for England in 1995 why is that fan using something he said as evidence that the England Rugby TEAM is arrogant? Pitbull was considered a verbal and physical loose canon as a player rather like Campo – but to judge the team now based on anything he says is unfair and actually rather strange to be honest. It’s like hating Gregan’s Aussie side for something Campo said yesterday?

It certainly is like hating Gregan's Aussie side for something Campo said yesterday.
I'm just trying to figure out what your point is.

[Tamerlin]

First and certainly last comments from me about England-France.

I have only seen the second half of the game and I am not pleased by what have done the French. They were lucky the English kickers could not do their job properly but they have won and this is the only thing that mattered this day.

If we consider the number of times France lost a game against England after the latter proposed nothing else other than destroying their opponents' game it is only justice it happens to an English team itself.

I am not happy with this victory as I am waiting for a far better performance from any French team and the return of the famous "French flair" that was feared (or mocked) by the other teams all over the world.

I have seen so many teams winning against France and the Stade Toulousain thanks to a methodic plan only aiming to impair their game rather than raising their level of play in order to unbalance a defence that I can't be satisfied with sunday's game. But I must admit that the team and the coach (it hurts to say this) were intelligent enough to adapt themselves to their opponents... which is rather new.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Tamerlin

I don't blame you for staying away after the terrible French performance, only made to look a tiny bit better by the even more terrible English performance.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak

It amazes me how so many of your countrymen can live here and still not grow a sense of humour.

I'll leave this to you two Poms to sort out.

Um – you did hear what Andy Robinson said post game Finbar? I wonder if that kind of denial can be overcome to be honest?

Yes, I watched the interview and read the transcript. That's why I added my rider - "whether any of that happens remains to be seen". But you're right. It's deep denial. Publicly, at least.

Certainly all the comments I have seen have been about squad solidarity around the kickers and the skipper saying how close they are to being the real article – and yes the latter made me choke on my morning coffee yesterday.

Yes, delusion is in the air. I've been checking out the BBC forum. Last time I looked, the realists were outnumbering the deluded.

I see Owen has signed for Newcastle after all Finbar – does he think it is in Ireland by any chance?

I hadn't heard the news. Mmmm. Yes, the phone probably rang, he heard the accent and confused it for a Paddy.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Tamerlin

I have only seen the second half of the game

Lucky you didn't see the first half. You'd be paying for a new TV!

[Havak]

Anyone'd think you Brits are stubborn or something.

Stubborn? Us? Possibly.

The trouble with text as ever is it has no subtle inflections. And I read the fans comment as deadly serious offence having been taken and the journalist as smug superiority. The fact the fan misspelled the name somewhat supports my reading of him – it smacks of uni-brow IQ to me. And a sports journalist making a funny retort – is there any credibility at all in that concept?

As ever you the audience will decide.

See above comments about Kiwi's not passing on their better-developed senses of humour.

Now I concede that point – playing Australia twice each and every year must require a sense of humour?

I'm just trying to figure out what your point is.

I’m gaining an improved sense of humour I hope – because that was funny!

If we consider the number of times France lost a game against England after the latter proposed nothing else other than destroying their opponents' game it is only justice it happens to an English team itself.

Oh I see the irony in it Tamerlin.

At least you may have helped us get rid of an inadequate coach sooner rather than later. Not that I can bring myself to thank you for that!

Yes, delusion is in the air. I've been checking out the BBC forum. Last time I looked, the realists were outnumbering the deluded.

There are some smart rugger-nutters on that forum. And plenty of nonces too. And gloating Taffs by the bucket load right now. I’m avoiding it on the whole.

Wales with a chance of a Grand Slam (slim as it is)? I feel like I am living a nightmare!

My only hope is that the Boks, Romania, NZ and Japan all beat them in the Autumn so they disappear back into their shells.

[ravagon]

Originally posted by Havak

Now I concede that point – playing Australia twice each and every year must require a sense of humour?

Well, if you put it like that ...


I shall nobly ignore the aspersions cast on my character, coming as they do from an Australian.

[Edit: Mmm. Didn't mean to do that. Blasted keyboard. Where's tech support when you need them?]



Another RSA player in trouble it would seem. A doping scandal this time ...

http://www.planetrugby.com/News/story_41595.shtml

Supposedly the chap picked it up from a chemist after being assured that it didn't contain any banned substances. Hmmm.
Well it isn't quite as bad as 'My mom gave it to me!' I suppose ...
Turns out he seems to have tested positive for a little known steroid which stretches the credibility of his explanation a bit further. It may be a little harsh to judge based on a first test but, well, some people never seem to learn.

[Havak]

I certainly loved the powerful argument he puts forward - "I am 23 so I don't need to use steroids".

Searing Front row brain power at work there.

It sounds like the RFU are winding up to make a power play over player access. I need to check I heard the right name on the radio this morning before attirbuting a comment but basically a RFU high up said we cannot expect success because Andy Robinson hardly gets to see his players.

No that's all well and good - perhaps our clubs do deserve a rap over the knuckles for such meaness as only having let Clive have the players for six months before the RWC(!), but how does this excuse the tactical inpetness this coach has displayed - or explain his bizarre non use of his benches?

Andy Robinson is not failing because he only has the players in the week before a game - he is failing because he is not up to the job.

In other words - hands off our players RFU.

You know as time goes on I get more and more convinced the RFU will only be run correctly if Tigers take it over. Or me perhaps. In which case Robinson can pack his bags before I arrive.

So we play Newcastle on Saturday - no Jonny for them but I wonder if Finny will be there? Burke certainly will which should be fun for all the Lions tourists in the crowd who remember his silky diplomacy during the tour.

*edit* Just seen Finny joins next season (when he will be rising 33). Clearly Falcons are building for the future?