Rugby - Running Out of Titles

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Originally posted by Havak
I think for my money if Quins did finish bottom that English Rugby Premiership would find some technicality on which Bristol could not come up from the lower division. It’s shameful but it’s regrettably been done before (Leeds are in the top flight only because Rotherham were denied promotion for 02/03 – strangely Bath were bottom until literally almost the last day of the season).

I remember the Rotheram stink. But isn't there a fundamental problem with the relegation system? The teams coming up aren't good enough. A bit like s***** over there. With some exceptions, teams that get promoted to the top level tend to sink straight back down again the next season. The second level needs to lift its standard. But then that needs money, doesn't it.

It’s Patty Howard I think – he has them playing fifteen man rugby with conviction even in situations where sticking it up the jersey is better warranted.

Hopefully he's fining them if the notion of kicking the thing even crosses their mind. Thus the dill who tried the chip kick should have lost his wages.

It’s a terrific combination. I was hugely sceptical about Eddie playing two natural opensides but I would say it is paying off.

Yes, well, Eddie has settled for limited lineout options in favour of the havoc the pair of them can wreak around the ground. That's why Eddie is so keen on the kid Hoiles who came off the bench against you. He's a #8 and a born jumper. I think he's too light yet for a Test #8, but he will develop.

What bothers me most with the Lions right now is I cannot see a single Scot figuring on merit – unless Simon Taylor can get fit and into form in time (he’s a classy number 8 – went home early last time after getting injured in Perth).

I didn't see a single Scotsman who'd threaten for a spot. It will be England, Ireland and a couple of Taffys.

I've been watching the current Test in South Africa with interest. Trescothic has been sprung with no footwork. And I think it's Vaughan's problem these days, too. Shuffling across the stumps rather than going forward or back.

[Havak]

The second level needs to lift its standard. But then that needs money, doesn't it.

Spot on. And it’s a problem that I cannot see a solution to. The club game is more popular here than it has ever been – but even the top division has to be financially propped up by TV money for the national side. There is only so much to go around. What happens at the moment is that promoted clubs tend to have backers – sugar daddies if you will – that prop them up until they get bored. Cecil Duckworth is bank rolling Worcester (their ground holds around 8000 people so gate receipts and commercial activities alone would never support them).

Thus the dill who tried the chip kick should have lost his wages.

Daryl Gibson. What can you expect from a former AB.

That's why Eddie is so keen on the kid Hoiles who came off the bench against you

I was too busy wondering how we failed to win the game to take too much notice. After Cueto scored we should have finished you off. Two years ago we would have I think. Wonder what has changed? Almost everything?

By the way have you heard that Finnegan has been linked with Rob Andrew’s Newcastle?

Or that the line up being touted for England’s six nations midfield is Ellis-Hodgson-Wilko-Smith. It’s an interesting combination and I would mind seeing it played. Smith’s time finally seems to have arrived if he can just keep fit another four weeks.

Oh and Tindall’s agent is playing hard ball with Bath’s owner top try and leverage a better contract for Tinders. It will backfire – Brownsword is not known for being pushed around.

I didn't see a single Scotsman who'd threaten for a spot

Taylor could push Corry if, and only if, he plays in the 6N. Beyond that I would tend to agree. Though I might chance the winger Lamont – looks like he could thrive in a quality side given the chance.

I wondered if you were watching the cricket. The England first innings was what I could only describe as Cavalier. I wondered if over confidence would become a problem for them. And dead right about Vaughan – the footwork has become appalling. Even worse it looks like Freddie Flintoff is out of the rest of the tour.

Their best chance of batting out the last day was Thorpey – so nice surpise really to see him go early on slashing at a wide ball from Pollock.

The real problem here is that South Africa are a poor bowling side – it has been poor batting from us causing the problems. Still as I write we only need another 306 for victory with four wickets left – with those demon batsmen Giles and Jones at the crease. Easy.

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Originally posted by Havak
Spot on. And it’s a problem that I cannot see a solution to. The club game is more popular here than it has ever been – but even the top division has to be financially propped up by TV money for the national side. There is only so much to go around. What happens at the moment is that promoted clubs tend to have backers – sugar daddies if you will – that prop them up until they get bored. Cecil Duckworth is bank rolling Worcester (their ground holds around 8000 people so gate receipts and commercial activities alone would never support them).

It's the utterly predictable end result of "professionalism" in sport. Sports such as club rugby - and AFL here - that were essentially tribal, suburban contests have been caught up and swept along with ever-inflating costs. Come the day when outgoings can't be substantially met by bona fide incomings, when sugar daddies and TV rights and sponsorship make up most of the incomings, the whole structure is vulnerable. Which lower s***** league over there was stuffed a couple of years ago when the TV company went belly up? S12 is entirely dependent on Murdoch money. There are no foundations anymore. So much sport is built on sand. It's the times. Unfortunately. Sooner or later it will all come crashing down.

But back to the point. There isn't a solution to the problem of the promoted team struggling. The second division will never - sugar daddies aside - lift its standard because it's what it is - second division. It won't earn the big sponsorships or the TV rights. Because, they would argue, who wants to watch second division? Second division - club rugby over there, the lower level of AFL here - will remain a throwback to the old days - the good old days, which, frankly, I preferred - of supporter strength, fund-raisers, pie nights, et al. And completely unprepared to contest against fully-sponsored, fully-professional organisations in the higher division.

They might as well do away with the promotion/relegation system in your club rugby. It's token democracy.

I was too busy wondering how we failed to win the game to take too much notice. After Cueto scored we should have finished you off. Two years ago we would have I think. Wonder what has changed? Almost everything?

No. Just You Know Who.

By the way have you heard that Finnegan has been linked with Rob Andrew’s Newcastle?

Mmmm. Hadn't heard that. There was talk a year or so ago of him going to Ireland to play in front of his 1,200,000 rellies over there.

Or that the line up being touted for England’s six nations midfield is Ellis-Hodgson-Wilko-Smith.

Damn sight better than the incumbents. Although Hodgson is an incumbent and I'm not sure about him anyway.

Oh and Tindall’s agent is playing hard ball with Bath’s owner top try and leverage a better contract for Tinders. It will backfire – Brownsword is not known for being pushed around.

See the above tirade about professionalism in sport.

I wondered if you were watching the cricket. The England first innings was what I could only describe as Cavalier. I wondered if over confidence would become a problem for them. And dead right about Vaughan – the footwork has become appalling. Even worse it looks like Freddie Flintoff is out of the rest of the tour.

Their best chance of batting out the last day was Thorpey – so nice surpise really to see him go early on slashing at a wide ball from Pollock.

The real problem here is that South Africa are a poor bowling side – it has been poor batting from us causing the problems. Still as I write we only need another 306 for victory with four wickets left – with those demon batsmen Giles and Jones at the crease. Easy.

I didn't see any of today. I turned it on late and the game was all over. The Boks bowled very well yesterday, England's batting technique and concentration let them down. The day before, England bowled badly and the Boks batted well. Frankly, England could win the next Test. I think both teams have fundamental flaws and whichever one gets it close enough to right on a given day will clean up.

The Sky commentators are still talking up Kay. He topped the aggregates in county cricket last year. Big fizz. He averaged 60 in all Tests last year. Against whom?

The England bowlers just aren't accurate enough. A player like Kallis - a fine batsman - knows he will get a couple of half volleys or wide, short balls every over. He just sweats on them. Top class batsmen will do that. Lesser batsmen don't have the patience and bowlers can end up with inflated figures. Equally, the Boks can bowl just as badly.

And as for Vaughan's tactics early in the match - seven fieldsmen on the off side and Flintoff bowling two feet outside the off stump when Kallis was only in the 40s - well, I say no more.

[ravagon]

Originally posted by finbar
I'll email you some Italian snow next Christmas.

I missed the e there for a minute.
Although sending real snow through the post would be rather amusing actually.

Originally posted by Havak
Daryl Gibson. What can you expect from a former AB.

Hullo Havak.



Incidentally it looks as though Leeds is going to have another AB next season. Marshall's going to have a stint of a couple of years there after his next season with the crusaders.

http://www.planetrugby.com/Teams/New_Zealand/story_40840.shtml

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And Carlos will be next. Bet your boots.

[ravagon]

Nah. He'll be off to a club that really needs propping up.
Wonder if any English club in particular has been in the market lately?

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[Havak]

Which lower s***** league over there was stuffed a couple of years ago when the TV company went belly up?

The entire Football League – all three divisions below the Premiership – suddenly had a huge revenue stream disappear. Soccer is of course the perfect example of a Professional Sport built on foundation of sand – and it also relies on Murdoch money in the UK. What other business could literally pay 100% of turnover straight into the pocket of it’s employees. Is kicking a Kissball about really worth £100K a week? Is an average player at a struggling Division one club worth 20K a week? Is anyone illiterate worth that?

the good old days, which, frankly, I preferred - of supporter strength, fund-raisers, pie nights, et al.

I understand entirely - I take my fix of this at my local club these days rather than Tigers. I wouldn’t give up the great times Tigers have given me (in Paris and Cardiff for example) since they went fully Pro but something was definitely lost at the club when they did. The only saving grace is that I think they retained more of the ‘club spirit’ than any other top franchise did – and that is mainly because we had no sugar daddy come in.

They might as well do away with the promotion/relegation system in your club rugby. It's token democracy.

I think it will happen. It will not be popular amongst fans though. It’s different to S12 where a limited number of franchises were deliberately created – our league grew out of existing teams and there are some big old names in our second flight that would be denied top-level rugby forever if we ring fence the Premiership. It will not sit well with the fans at all.

There was talk a year or so ago of him going to Ireland to play in front of his 1,200,000 rellies over there.

The Irish Union is a little short of cash – they might not be able to afford him at any Province right now.

Damn sight better than the incumbents. Although Hodgson is an incumbent and I'm not sure about him anyway.

I like the idea of Charlie with Ellis and Wilko either side much more than with Gomers and Greenwood. His less physical style can hide between those two gung ho tacklers?

The Sky commentators are still talking up Kay

Robert Key?

He still looks overweight to me for a test batsman. He charged down the wicket in the first innings and got stumped. Muppet. However in his defence Butcher dropped out just before the toss and there haven’t been any warm up games so Key had not played much cricket since September before this test. Stupid schedule for this tour I think.

The England bowlers just aren't accurate enough

The strange thing is that both Harmison and Jones are normally much more accurate than this tour has shown. Harmison seems particularly out of sorts – always blowing like a whale as if he is exhausted. I also wonder if that injury in Aus has fundamentally changed Jones?

As for batting – Harmison (number 11 – average below 10) top scored with 42 in the second innings. The top order need their arse kicking!

And as for Vaughan's tactics early in the match

The acid test of a skipper is losing and coming back better – Vaughan has faced little of that challenge so far. Lets see if he learns from it. he needs to or next summer will be very predictable.

Hullo Havak.

All right Ravagon?

Actually Daryl has been great for us since he replaced Tugboat. He has certainly helped bring Smith on into very realistic England contention. He just has no kicking game whatsoever and I wish he would realise it. Finbar will I am sure confirm that the attempted chip was suicidal.

I wondered if you lads had seen the news about Marshall. And I am sure Spencer will be up here soon too. The thing is I cannot see it being Tigers for him now – with Goode and Broadfoot in situ and VD Westhuyzen apparently resigned from next season there really isn’t room for him anymore. He missed the boat and may therefore end up in a black hole like Sarcens or Saints.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak


The entire Football League – all three divisions below the Premiership – suddenly had a huge revenue stream disappear. Soccer is of course the perfect example of a Professional Sport built on foundation of sand – and it also relies on Murdoch money in the UK. What other business could literally pay 100% of turnover straight into the pocket of it’s employees. Is kicking a Kissball about really worth £100K a week? Is an average player at a struggling Division one club worth 20K a week? Is anyone illiterate worth that?

Anyone who thinks it can sustain itself is kidding themselves. Anyone who thought the dot.com boom would sustain was kidding themselves. But a lot of people did.

The only saving grace is that I think they retained more of the ‘club spirit’ than any other top franchise did – and that is mainly because we had no sugar daddy come in.

Yes, there are still a few clubs that retain the spirit. The club I support in the AFL - the suburb where I was born in Melbourne - is the same. They were nearly forced to merge with another team a couple of years ago for "rationalisation" purposes. There was a massive groundswell of supporter power against the merger and it was defeated. But those sorts of things are few and far between these days.

I think it will happen. It will not be popular amongst fans though. It’s different to S12 where a limited number of franchises were deliberately created – our league grew out of existing teams and there are some big old names in our second flight that would be denied top-level rugby forever if we ring fence the Premiership. It will not sit well with the fans at all.

I'm sure it wouldn't, but that's the problem when you fundamentally change the nature of the competition. It's now money-driven rather than tribal. With some teams managing to maintain the tribal qualities. (See above) AFL teams here were merged and relocated. The big names in your second flight might snaffle a spot in the top division, but will they survive? Is their joy in dropping straight back down again? Either the budgets of the top level teams are cut, or the authorities have, somehow, to work to lift the standard of the second division. I can't see either happening. So the same old farce will continue.

I like the idea of Charlie with Ellis and Wilko either side much more than with Gomers and Greenwood. His less physical style can hide between those two gung ho tacklers?

Fair point. Until he's targeted.

Robert Key?

He still looks overweight to me for a test batsman. He charged down the wicket in the first innings and got stumped. Muppet. However in his defence Butcher dropped out just before the toss and there haven’t been any warm up games so Key had not played much cricket since September before this test. Stupid schedule for this tour I think.

Yes, sorry. Key. The Sky commentators were making the point about his lack of cricket. Regardless, I don't think he's Test quality. I think he made one good score out here last time. He looks like a solid - in every sense of the word - county player. You can get away with a bit less batting talent in Test cricket if you're a dogged fighter, but he's not.

The strange thing is that both Harmison and Jones are normally much more accurate than this tour has shown. Harmison seems particularly out of sorts – always blowing like a whale as if he is exhausted. I also wonder if that injury in Aus has fundamentally changed Jones?

Harmison is bowling much too short. On those Bok pitches, which are like the pitches here, short-pitched bowling is meaningless unless you're a Jeff Thompson pitching just short of a length and climbing at the batsman's head. On firm wickets, the ball sails way over the stumps. Ian Botham made a rare sensible comment about Harmison: he has to aim to hit the top of the off stump instead of sending the ball three feet over the top of the off stump. Jones was underbowled. He only got a turn after Harmison, Hoggard and Giles. He looked more dangerous than either Harmison or Hoggard. Quick enough, if not quite as quick as he was out here before his injury, and, more importantly, fairly accurate. He's worth keeping going.

As for batting – Harmison (number 11 – average below 10) top scored with 42 in the second innings. The top order need their arse kicking!

That will sometimes happen. Glenn McGrath got 50 this summer. So did Jason Gillespie. But your top order is dodgy. Still, as I said yesterday, it could all turn around in the next match. The Boks are just as capable of crap cricket. The difference between the teams at the moment is Kallis.

Actually Daryl has been great for us since he replaced Tugboat. He has certainly helped bring Smith on into very realistic England contention. He just has no kicking game whatsoever and I wish he would realise it. Finbar will I am sure confirm that the attempted chip was suicidal.

I believe that the term d*ckhead sums it up appropriately.

I wondered if you lads had seen the news about Marshall. And I am sure Spencer will be up here soon too. The thing is I cannot see it being Tigers for him now – with Goode and Broadfoot in situ and VD Westhuyzen apparently resigned from next season there really isn’t room for him anymore. He missed the boat and may therefore end up in a black hole like Sarcens or Saints.

You can bet on it. Kiwi S12 wages are on the low side. If you're not playing for the ABs, you're not earning. That was why Caucau headed for Europe. Where did he end up eventually? I thought he was heading for France.

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by finbar
You can bet on it. Kiwi S12 wages are on the low side. If you're not playing for the ABs, you're not earning. That was why Caucau headed for Europe. Where did he end up eventually? I thought he was heading for France.

He is currently playing for the Sporting Union Agenais, a hundred or so kilometers away from Toulouse, he already played once at Ernest Wallon against the Stade Toulousain. He is rather an impressive player and has been looked after like boiling water, and something like quenched, by Toulouse's defenders.

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A-ha. That's where he is. Yes, he's impressive. Terrifyingly quick and good skills. If he changes his first name to Pierre, he might earn a bleu jersey.

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Hey Tamerlin. I was watching a documentary on the history of English. After William of Normandy conquered England, 10,000 French words flooded into the English language. Take them back!

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And now I notice that J. Wilkinson has injured himself again. I smell a rat. The lad is shirking.

EDIT. I also just noticed this result:

Biarritz 21 -d- Leicester 17

Leicester didn't score in the first half, and only a try in injury time saw them pick up a bonus point. Is this the same team I saw against Wasps?

[Havak]

Not even close. The first half was I think the worst rugby I have seen from them in several years. I don’t know what caused it but hands were terrible, positioning way off and they persisted in a kicking game plan of kicking it in field to the BO backs – but Brusque was handling everything and booming it back with interest. You cannot expect to play like they did for that 40 and still win the game.

So the club has effectively blown Europe after already fairly deliberately throwing the domestic cup. Now wonder the committee looked so unhapoy after teh game - it's a huge blow to the clubs season. Only a mathematical miracle can see us progress now. And it could have been so different – the second half was a different game with Biarritz entering our half only on four occasions – and never into our 22 (they still scored a penalty sadly due to our indiscipline). Territory and possession must have been 90% Tigers. Biarritz are a class side – powerful and organised - but it’s a team we really should have beaten tidily.

I cannot blame the referee for Tigers failure to get their heads in gear – but it was a remarkable refereeing performance never the less. Two disallowed tries in the second half one of which, on repeated viewing, I am absolutely certain was good. He had a real problem with educating BO as to the various offside lines for all aspects of play – I was gobsmacked in the second half when the big dumb farm boy joined a maul from behind OUR back foot and nothing was done and their back line was up so quick all the time I thought they were Kiwis - hullo Ravagon But there was a game breaking decision before half time. Tigers get a penalty in the BO 22 and kick to the corner right in front of me. It’s a good 2-3 metres in field. The BO winger says it has gone dead – and the moronic referee agrees! Worst decision in a top class game (since the Luger try?). If we had caught and drove from there the game was going to be ours despite the lead they had.

For our opponents Betsen continues to impress me – he made a crunching last ditch tackle on Ollie Smith that saved a try. Brusque has one hell of a boot on him. The biggest surprise was Harinordoquy – he looks a pale shadow of the bullocking young lad that broke onto the international scene two years ago. Maybe it was just a blip?

For us Jonno was throwing himself around in a one man effort to turn things around. He will simply be totally irreplaceable. Backy spent the entire second half wrapped around the ball and Ellis just gets better and better - but his dark side continues with another yellow for raising an elbow. Still his try gives that slim mathematical chance and for that one has to be grateful.

So here I am having to support Wasps against Biarritz next weekend - and pray neither gets a bonus point wth Wasps winning. Did I say slim? Anorexic would seem more like it.

And Wilko really has injured his knee. He will never wear the rose again at this rate!

Anyway I am going away to sulk now…

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Originally posted by Havak
So here I am having to support Wasps against Biarritz next weekend -

Chickens come home to roost!

Damn cheap Greek-Canadian software that won't let me fill the post with s

Anyway I am going away to sulk now…

See above!

[Havak]

I am aware of the irony in having to support them believe me.