The Triumph of Christianity

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


Then the Danes will not have a country to come home to, if that is their attitude. Just because this is what you want to see doesn't mean that all the groups that are in Denmark will also want this.

Since danes don't don't mess around as in the good old days (~1000 AD), most are at home, so that is not a problem. You are not very clear, but i guess that your second statement are about immigration (otherwise it don't make sense) - well, immigration has been reduced dramatically over the last three years, and except from some small political parties, the common opinion in both public and political are that it's the way it should be.

Originally posted by Heresson
I think it was better for the peasants because they were not bound to the land (were they?), but the general level of science, of agriculture etc dropped.
Almost entire Gaul was farmland in Roman times, almost as it is today. In MA, it was largely covered with forests.
The number of population reduced too.

I must admit that i have never heard about a period of time where peasants wasn't bound to the land except for the last 40 - 50 years. About Gaul beeing pure farmland, there you are totally wrong. On the contrary, most parts was wilderness and only small areas around cities was cultivated.

Just take the numbers from http://www.shsu.edu/~his_ncp/RomTab.html Acoording to this there was approx 7 mill working roman people in the year 47. Agreed, that are only roman citizens, but even with a factor 2 for the noncitizens, you won't be able to that kind of agriculturing that you are talking about.

Barinthus : if you add a 0 i'll agree.

Kuci : first we need to get a foothold on terminus.

Ben : I ask the same question as Kontiki.

[Barinthus]

Blackcat - as in 50,000,000? Ok sure, you got a deal. It's vastly better than 5,000,000,000!!!!

[BlackCat]

Yuk, sorry, i really meant approx 2-3 bill. - used to much time counting romans :-) Thats a little more zeros and a minor nuber.

It should be possible to get a balance with that number, but as it looks it we are in short time reaching 10 to 12 bill and then i think the fan are going to have trouble to cope all what will hit.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by molly bloom


Hmm- then who were those peasants who farmed the land in Augustan times?

Did I write peasants? Damn, I meant serfs.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Ned
No doubt you identified yourself has a religion-hating bigot first.

Actually, I keep my religion hating bigroty to myself if I know what's good for me. I only discuss my views with close friends or people on the internet who can't hit me. Religious people tend to be rather violent.

[Ned]

No, I agree, Che. Christians can be violent, mainly because their beliefs are so strong.

Here is a bit of history I was unaware of. But in 1897, a revolution broke out in Brazil lead by a radical catholic. They defeated several Brazilian armies before being wiped out to the last man. Fascinating.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?postid=3452604#post3452604

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Assuming Cantor is correct. Heck, there weren't even peasants in the Roman Empire 'till it was declining. I doubt one should compare the end of the Empire with the flowering of the Middle Ages.

Interesting sidebar. It was with the triumph of Christianity that Rome collapsed. Now that Christianity is triumphing in America, we too seem to be on the verge of collapse.

Actually in a way the fall of Rome was sort of revenge for centuries of bad habits. When the Huns began encroaching upon eastern europe tribes flocked to the empire for shelter. One of those tribes was the Visigoths. Upon being allowed entry they were herded into a pen and given an inadequate amount of food to support their population. The Roman troops guarding them then bargained with the hapless Goths: sell your children into slavery in exchange for food. Eventually the Visigoths were given vacant land to settle upon, but the men were forced into the Roman army. Over a decade or so their families were continually ill treated by the Romans. Eventually a leader arose from the Goths employed by the Romans. He gathered about him an army trained and armed by the Romans, marched upon Rome and sacked it. Rome never recovered, for soon afterwards the Huns began raiding the empire.

[Heresson]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Hence the prayer, "Jesus, save me from your followers."

I don't think any Christians understand their religion, since Jesus was trying to show people how to be better Jews, not create a whole new religion. Boy did you people ever get it wrong.

Christians = better Jews
"Jews" = worse Jews

Modern Judaism is as different from the one 2000 years ago as Christianity

Also, remember when a pagan lady stepped to Jesus and took some of his power to heal herself. Jesus said that it's not good to feed the dogs when the children are in need or sth, and the lady replied that even dogs get some food from the table of their masters, and He agreed.
Such behaviour does not quite fit Jesus (calling pagans dogs), and I think that perhaps it's an interpolation, but still, it's in the Bible.

I must admit that i have never heard about a period of time where peasants wasn't bound to the land except for the last 40 - 50 years

Perhaps in Denmark...

About Gaul beeing pure farmland, there you are totally wrong. On the contrary, most parts was wilderness and only small areas around cities was cultivated.

You are wrong.

Acoording to this there was approx 7 mill working roman people in the year 47. Agreed, that are only roman citizens, but even with a factor 2 for the noncitizens, you won't be able to that kind of agriculturing that you are talking about

Are You kidding? This numbers are the numbers of all Roman citizens. You should multiply it at least several times to get the number of the empire. And it is in no relevance to the population of Gaul.

[Ned]

I think the count of Roman citizens only counted men who were citizens. As the link stated, until Social War, Roman citizens consisted mainly of the citizens of Rome itself. After the social war it included Italians in southern Italy. It wasn't until the early 200s that Rome made every male of the Empire a citizen.

It was Emperor Diocletian who created the system that tied people to their occupations. He did so because people began to abandon farms and other occupations due to the price controls he imposed on Empire.

Price controls also lead to a decline and eventually to a collapse of trade. In its place people began to barter to pay for things. Without money, people also had an increasingly difficult time paying taxes.

In the closing decades of the Empire, taxes became so crushing that citizens farmers sold their land to the local senator, who did not have to pay taxes, and was given the right to continue to farm the land in exchange for a share of the crop and protection from an increasingly lawless environment.

The rise in banditry also made the roads unsafe. Trade declined. Soon too the maintenance of the roads themselves ended.

All this time Christianity continue to spread in the western Empire. Partly because of the pacifism taught by the church, Romans increasingly refused to serve in the Army. As a result, the Army increasingly became composed of German mercenaries where only the officer corps were Roman citizens. This had the unfortunate effect of teaching the Germans how to properly arm themselves and fight so that the Roman advantage in weapons and training ceased to exist. The Romans could no longer defeat the German armies, who then overran Empire until the whole West was occupied by German and Goth forces.

So, in a way, Christianity helped bring about the collapse of the Roman Empire because its own citizens refused to join the Army. But equally important to the collapse of Empire were Diocletian's price controls and his edict tying people to their occupations.

[Sava]

So, in a way, Christianity helped bring about the collapse of the Roman Empire because its own citizens refused to join the Army

you know, I was just thinking about this... I was even pondering starting a thread about Christianity causing the demise of the Roman Empire.

[Arrian]

Meh. I don't buy that. It *might* have been a contributing factor, but THE reason? Come on.

Rome was up against a horde of barbarians, and had a host of internal problems to deal with. Civil wars, insane/inept emperors (indeed Imperial Rule, period), plague, overstretch...

I'm no expert on Rome, but I doubt Christianity was anything more than a minor player in the Fall.

-Arrian

[Ben Kenobi]

How many Christians do you know? I know plenty, and they are among the meanist, nastiest, most hate-filled people I've ever met.

Not been my experience either.

Just remember this Che, just because one is a Chrisitian, doesn't mean one is going to be better than everyone else. Rather, they will be better than they would be if they weren't Christian.

It's very true that those who need the most help, tend to ask for it, when those who don't think they need much help turn it down.

[Ben Kenobi]

Such behaviour does not quite fit Jesus (calling pagans dogs), and I think that perhaps it's an interpolation, but still, it's in the Bible.

It's the analogy, the pagans are the dogs to the child Jews.

[Ben Kenobi]

Are you of the opinion that the planet can sustain an infinite number of people?

Why limit ourselves to one?

[Kontiki]

Edit: Already answered.